HC Deb 30 July 1935 vol 304 cc2503-613

Order for Consideration of Lords Amendments read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered.

4.13 p.m.


May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, as to what scope and latitude you will allow in the Debate upon the Question which has now been put? We have before us a very bulky pamphlet of Amendments, representing a great mass of business which, apparently, is to be examined by the House, and I submit that it might be for the greater convenience of the House, and that it certainly would involve no loss of Parliamentary time, if a general Debate were permitted on the Question which has now been put. The discussion of the various Amendments of substance could be abridged as much as possible thereafter. I should like to take your Ruling upon that suggestion.


I am as fully aware as the right hon. Gentleman of the bulky nature of this document, but the question as to what we discuss on this Motion is rather a matter for the convenience of the House. Strictly speaking, on a Motion as to whether the Lords Amendments be now considered, the discussion should be confined to reasons for and against consideration of the Lords Amendments—but that may be rather widely interpreted. If it is for the convenience of the House, I have no objection to a much wider discussion on this Motion, on the understanding that when the Amendments are reached they will not be discussed all over again. Of course the Amendments will be put separately, and if necessary a Division will be taken on every one of them.


I see no particular purpose in having a general discussion ranging over the whole of this large number of Amendments, nor do I see how any Second Reading speech could possibly cover the whole of this body of Amendments. On the other hand, there are many points on which we on this side of the House disagree very strongly with the Lords Amendments which we wish to discuss.

Viscount WOLMER

Surely there is no incompatability between having a discussion now on the radical change that has been introduced into the Bill in another place and dealing with those issues, to which the right hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) has referred, when they come up on the several Amendments. Some of the Amendments made in another place have radically transformed the Bill and they might properly be discussed on this Motion. The detailed points to which the right hon. Member for Limehouse has referred could certainly be discussed when they come up.

4.17 p.m.


On the point raised by the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), I think it would be a pity if in the general discussion that he suggested such an important matter as the alteration of the method of election to the Council of State were taken. Reference has been made to radical alteration. That is a most substantial alteration made in another place. Before it can be discussed I am very anxious—and no doubt others share my view—to hear the alteration fully explained by the Minister in charge of the Bill, and if we have a general discussion now upon what has been done in another place, shall we not be shut out from that very real advantage? The change, when we come to discuss it, can only be debated by the House after its full effect has been explained by the Minister. Does the right hon. Member for Epping suggest that in the earlier and general discussion we should take that alteration within our purview?

4.18 p.m.


On the point of Order and procedure I would ask whether, on the Question "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," the House is not entitled to take a view of the Amendments collectively and of the general effect upon the Bill of this great series of Amendments. Each Amendment, it is true, has its separate significance, but the whole series of Amendments taken together raise the question whether in fact the Bill is substantially modified in this direction or that, and, whether the objections of this or that class are met by the whole set of Amendments together. I ask whether this Motion is not for the purpose of raising that general issue rather than that the House should embark upon detailed discussion of the Amend-merits without having had any chance of reviewing them as a whole?


If we now have a general discussion which limits the discussion of points as they come up later, it will mean that we shall have a few long three-decker speeches and that certain people will have an advantage, but that when we come to discuss details the hon. Member who may be interested in a particular point raised by an Amendment will find himself ruled out entirely by the previous discussion. I put that point of view of the Private Member and ask that it may be considered.


I hope I can relieve the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), by stating that as far as I am concerned I have no intention of speaking for more than 10 or 12 minutes at the outside.


I am sure that nothing would ever induce my right hon. Friend to make a long speech.


I do not think the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) is quite accurate when he says that a general discussion on the Amendments is appropriate to a Motion "That the Lords Amendments be now considered." As a rule such a Motion is dealt with in a formal way and is agreed to without any discussion, and I should not like to make any alteration in that practice unless it were for the convenience of the House and by the general agreement of the House. From what I have heard on the point of Order it seems to me that there is not that general agreement in the House. Therefore, I do not think we can proceed with a general discussion. We had better take the Motion formally and proceed with the Amendments.

Viscount WOLMER

The whole House is grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for having circulated a Memorandum on the Amendments. It is very difficult to follow the Amendments as they are put from the Chair. Will he be so kind, before each Amendment is put from the Chair, to say whether it is a drafting Amendment or one of the Amendments of substance referred to in the Memorandum?

4.22 p.m.


I shall certainly explain any Amendment which is other than a drafting or consequential Amendment. In the case of the drafting or consequential Amendments I shall merely say, "drafting," or "consequential" before the particular Amendment is put. I hope the House will find that the Memorandum is of use and value.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

  1. CLAUSE 2.—(Government of India by the Crown.) 141 words
  2. cc2506-7
  3. CLAUSE 6.—(Accession of Indian States.) 116 words
  4. cc2507-8
  5. CLAUSE 16.—(Advocate-General for Federation.) 521 words
  6. cc2508-9
  7. CLAUSE 18.—(Constitution of the Federal Legislature.) 109 words
  8. cc2509-12
  9. CLAUSE 20.—(Right of Governor-General to address, and send messages to, Chambers.) 1,242 words
  10. cc2512-23
  11. CLAUSE 21.—(Rights of ministers and counsellors as respects Chambers.) 4,492 words, 1 division
  12. c2523
  13. CLAUSE 25.—(Vacation of seats.) 128 words
  14. cc2523-4
  15. CLAUSE 26.—(Disqualifications for membership.) 145 words
  16. cc2524-9
  17. CLAUSE 45.—(Power of Governor-General to issue Proclamations.) 2,195 words, 1 division
  18. cc2529-30
  19. CLAUSE 47.—(Provisions as to Berar.) 453 words
  20. cc2530-1
  21. CLAUSE 52.—(Special responsibilities of Governor.) 156 words
  22. cc2531-8
  23. CLAUSE 68.—(Vacation of seats.) 2,753 words
  24. c2538
  25. CLAUSE 89.—(Power of Governor to promulgate ordinances at any time with respect to certain subjects.) 248 words
  26. cc2538-9
  27. CLAUSE 108.—(Sanction of Governor-General or Governor required for certain legislative proposals.) 227 words
  28. cc2539-40
  29. CLAUSE 109.—(Requirements as to sanctions and recommendations to be regarded as matters of procedure only.) 516 words
  30. cc2540-1
  31. CLAUSE 116.—(Subsidies for the encouragement of trade or industry.) 372 words
  32. cc2541-3
  33. CLAUSE 122.—(General duty to secure respect for Federal laws.) 529 words
  34. cc2543-4
  35. CLAUSE 126.—(Control of Federation over Province in certain cases.) 365 words
  36. c2544
  37. CLAUSE 143.—(Power of Federation Provinces to make grants.) 116 words
  38. CLAUSE 146.—(Expenses of the Crown in connection with Indian States.)
  39. cc2544-5
  40. CLAUSE 148.—(Remission of States contributions.) 213 words
  41. c2545
  42. CLAUSE 151.—(Expenditure defrayable out of Indian revenues.) 85 words
  43. cc2545-6
  44. CLAUSE 171.—(Auditor of Indian Home Accounts.) 207 words
  45. c2546
  46. CLAUSE 173.—(Vesting of lands and buildings.) 166 words
  47. cc2546-7
  48. CLAUSE 181.—(Contracts in connection with functions of Crown in its relations with Indian States.) 145 words
  49. cc2547-8
  50. CLAUSE 182.—(Executive authority in respect of railways to be exercised by Federal Railway Authority.) 332 words
  51. c2548
  52. CLAUSE 194.—(Appeal by State to Railway Tribunal from certain directions of Federal Railway Authority.) 83 words
  53. cc2548-9
  54. CLAUSE 197.—(Railway Tribunal.) 99 words
  55. c2549
  56. NEW CLAUSE.—(Railways in Indian, States which have not federated.) 137 words
  57. cc2549-50
  58. CLAUSE 213.—(Power of Governor-General to consult Federal Court.) 355 words
  59. cc2550-1
  60. NEW CLAUSE D.—(Transfer of certain cases to High Court for trial.) 285 words
  61. cc2551-9
  62. CLAUSE 241.—(Application of preceding section to railway services, and officials of courts.) 3,101 words
  63. cc2559-61
  64. CLAUSE 241.—(Application of preceding section to railway services, and officials of courts.) 564 words
  65. c2561
  66. CLAUSE 246.—(Conditions of service pensions, etc., of persons recruited by Secretary of State.) 117 words
  67. cc2561-5
  68. CLAUSE 260.—(Secretary of State to act with approval of his advisers.) 2,139 words, 1 division
  69. cc2565-6
  70. CLAUSE 280.—(Transfer of existing personnel.) 104 words
  71. cc2566-93
  72. CLAUSE 290.—(Power of His Majesty to make provision with respect to franchises and elections.) 10,550 words
  73. cc2593-6
  74. CLAUSE 293.—(Foreign Jurisdiction.) 1,263 words
  75. cc2596-7
  76. CLAUSE 294.—(Provisions as to death sentences.) 128 words
  77. c2597
  78. CLAUSE 296.—(Prohibition of certain restrictions on internal trade.) 155 words
  79. cc2597-8
  80. CLAUSE 297.—(Persons not to be subjected to disability by reason of race, religion, etc.) 377 words
  81. c2598
  82. CLAUSE 299.—(Protection of rights of Jagirdars, Inamdars, etc.) 11 words
  83. c2599
  84. NEW CLAUSE E. 185 words
  85. cc2599-600
  86. NEW CLAUSE F.—(Provisions as to Sheriff of Calcutta.) 412 words
  87. cc2600-1
  88. CLAUSE 301.—(Persons acting as Governor-General or Governor.) 110 words
  89. c2601
  90. NEW CLAUSE G.—(Removal of certain disqualifications on the occasion of the first elections to Legislature.) 186 words
  91. cc2601-4
  92. CLAUSE 304.—(Procedure as respect proposals for amendment of certain provisions of Act and Orders in council.) 1,002 words
  93. c2604
  94. CLAUSE 305.—(Orders in Council.) 136 words
  95. cc2604-6
  96. CLAUSE 309.—(Executive Government.) 754 words
  97. cc2606-7
  98. CLAUSE 310.—(Control of the Secretary of State.) 231 words
  99. CLAUSE 312.—(Legislature.)
  100. cc2607-8
  101. CLAUSE 314.—(Provisions as to Federal Court and certain other Federal authorities.) 207 words
  102. c2608
  103. CLAUSE 472.—(Charge of expenses on revenues raised in India or Burma.) 78 words
  104. cc2608-9
  105. SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Provisions of this Act which may be amended without affecting the Accession of a State.) 530 words
  106. cc2610-1
  107. SIXTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions as to Franchise.) 545 words
  108. cc2611-2
  109. SEVENTH SCHEDULE.—(Legislative Lists.) 378 words
  110. c2612
  111. TENTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions as to Governor of Burma.) 48 words
  112. cc2612-3
  113. ELEVENTH SCHEDULE.—(Areas in Burma to which special provisions apply.) 121 words