TRANSPORT BILL (Hansard, 30 April 1947)

HC Deb 30 April 1947 vol 436 cc1959-2129 1959

§ [3RD ALLOTTED DAY]

§ Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [29th April] on Consideration of Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee and on recommittal).

§ Which Amendment was in page line 30, at the end, to insert: Provided that if any person is aggrieved by the proposal to purchase any land compulsorily on the ground that such land belongs to him and forms an essential part of the premises upon which he carries on a trade or business and was acquired in relation thereto he may within twenty-eight days from the date on which he receives notice of the proposal to purchase such land compulsorily make an application to the High Court and the Court may if in its opinion it is unreasonable in the circumstances that such land should be compulsorily acquired direct that it should not be so acquired."—[Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe.]

§ Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

§ 3.45 p.m.

§ Mr. David Renton (Huntingdon)
When the House adjourned at two o'clock this morning, I was saying that reference to the High Court on matters affecting compulsory acquisition of land was necessary owing to the paradoxes in this Bill in regard to the basis of compensation when land is acquired compulsorily. I had not time fully to develop my argument then, but I will endeavour in a few words to explain, particularly for the benefit of the Solicitor-General, who I think, is principally concerned with the Amendment, the point which I am trying to make. The House will remember that under Clause 8 of the Bill, the 1939 value is to be applied when land is bought compulsorily by the Commission otherwise than when acquiring a transport business. But under Clause 46 (2) when the Commission is acquiring transport business, any property other than vehicles—and that means, possibly, any land such as a garage—will have to be paid for not at the 1939 value, but at the amount which it would fetch in the open market at the date of transfer, which might easily be very much higher.
Under Clause 8, it is difficult for us to tell with much precision what is going to happen, because we do not know very much about the Minister's intention with 1960 regard to the setting up of garages, repair depots, and so fourth, for the large number of vehicles, goods and passenger, which the Commission will be acquiring. The Parliamentary Secretary did however say in Committee that he anticipated that Clause 8 would be used for buying garages. His words were: it is essential that the Commission should have the power as given under Clause 8. It might be essential for it to purchase a garage in a convenient place, in, or close to, a convenient town."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 4th March, 1947, c. 546.] There seems to arise from that, a very serious danger that the Commission when not acquiring a transport business in its entirety, or, indeed, not acquiring any vehicles at all, might nevertheless decide to purchase some of the land, and get it at the 1939 values, and thereby handicap the people carrying on the business. I am sure that the Solicitor-General and the House will agree that that would be most unfair. Indeed, it would be the ruination of a business by an underhand method, and it is hard to believe that such a thing has ever been intended by the Government. But we should at least know what the Minister's reactions are to such a possibility. It is legally possible under the Bill as it stands for the notice of acquisition of a transport business to be postponed with the effect that the premises might be bought under Clause 8. The business being handicapped without its premises, might depreciate most terribly in value. Notice of acquisition might at a later date be served and, of course, the compensation payable when the business has gone down in that way would be negligible.
My next point concerns the acquisition of hotels. Under Clause 2, (1, d) the Commission has great power. It has power— in places within Great Britain where their passengers may require them, to provide both for their passengers and for other persons hotels, hostels, other living accommodation and places for refreshment; How is the Commission going to exercise that power? It is dealt with under Clause 46, but it is a question of the power being used under the compulsory purchase provisions of Clause 8 being brought into operation. In that way, a large number of hotels and restaurants could be bought over by the Commission, and 1939 values paid. I do not know whether or not the Minister contemplated that that would be 1961 legally possible under the Bill, but it seems to me that that would be so, because when power to buy land is given, I assume that it also means power to buy buildings on the land. There is no definition of land in the Bill, but in other Acts of Parliament land has been defined as including buildings upon it. When we are faced with such great threats to so many people, is it asking too much that cases of doubt or grievance should be referred by those people to courts of law, so that the matter may be dealt with justly and fairly by His Majesty's judges? For these reasons, I ask my hon. Friends to press this Amendment very strongly.

§ The Solicitor - General (Sir Frank Soskice)
This Amendment was debated in some detail early today and, when the House rose, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) had just put a question to me upon which I think the whole basis of his argument hinges. Today, he has enumerated various instances in which he thinks, or suggests, that justice might be affected because of the basis of compensation for which provision is made. He assumed for the purpose of his argument that the basis of compensation would be 1939 prices. I do not know whether hon. Members have noticed that there is on the Order Paper a proposed Amendment to the Town and Country Planning Bill, to amend Section 57 of the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944. Hon. Gentlemen will remember that the 1939 prices, in cases of compulsory acquisition, are fixed by the provisions of Section 57 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. The Amendment to which I refer and which I hope, in due course, the House will think proper to accept, provides that instead of the 1939 prices, those which are to be taken for the purpose of Section 57 are to be current prices subject to certain limitations, To put it briefly and in general terms, they are to be current prices less the development charge—less the value which attaches to the land by reason of its development possibilities. As hon. Members know, that particular value is being paid for by the £300 million which is provided for in the Town and Country Planning Bill.

§ Mr. Assheton (City of London)
Partly.

§ The Solicitor-General
I said "paid for" and the right hon. Gentleman said "partly." That is a matter of opinion. 1962 That is the basic figure to pay for the value of land, and the current value is substituted apart from that limitation, for the 1939 value. That is the answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Huntingdon. I think I am right in assuming that because of that answer, a great deal of the anomaly which he sought to make out would arise in the instances recounted by him, will not in fact arise.

§ Mr. Renton
I entirely agree with the Solicitor-General that so far as my arguments are concerned I am completely satisfied. My arguments have been answered; but, of course, the other arguments remain.

§ The Solicitor-General
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I will not take up any further time with that aspect of the question. I feel sure that hon. Members do not want me to review the arguments which were addressed to us early today. I would, however, summarise them very briefly as I see them. Apart from the case made by the hon. Member for Huntingdon, the argument made was really based upon this hypothesis; that when we get what is really no more than a trading corporation, we should not give preferential treatment to that trading corporation at the expense of other trading corporations without, at any rate, giving the right to the other trading corporations to test the matter before the courts.
In the first place it is not as if we were dealing with a trading corporation at all. No -doubt, this corporation will trade, but, after all, the Transport Commission is a great public undertaking which has a responsibility to each and every citizen in this country for the conduct of the transport industry in the United Kingdom. It is not in any sense comparable with a private concern, in competition with another private concern as to which it can be said that the court should resolve any dispute, difference or clash of interest arising between them. Under the terms of the Acquisition of Land Act, 1946, in the case of local authorities there is no such recourse. Under the terms of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, in the case of planning authorities there is no such recourse. 1n the case of the Departments mentioned in the 1946 Act, again there is no such recourse. It is not as if we are starting 1963 upon a matter which is res integra. This is a matter which has been codified by the terms of the 1946 Act, which is designed to set out a code, as the Parliamentary Secretary said yesterday. It is code which has been approved by the House primarily for the purpose of local authorities. Why should local authorities be placed in a situation different from that of the Transport Commission with regard to this problem?
In the case of the Transport Commission, the determining consideration in a decision whether or not a particular plot of land should be acquired, must be the public interest. The question is, can the Transport Commission discharge its public function in developing and carrying on the transport industry more efficiently by acquiring or not acquiring a particular piece of land? If the answer is "Yes," then obviously I submit the Commission should have the power to acquire upon payment of compensation. Compensation, of course, is to be paid. Which is the most appropriate organ to decide whether or not the public interest requires it? Surely, it is the Commission which, in the interests of the public, is charged with the duty of carrying on the transport industry. I put it to the House that it is something in the nature of an unnecessary duplication to submit to the Courts a matter which is peculiarly one for the decision of the Transport Commission when what the Commission has to decide is whether the public interest requires that a particular plot of land should be acquired.
If it is necessary for the purpose of the Transport Commission that it should have that land at its disposal I put it to the House that it ought to have these powers. It ought to have them so long as it exercises them bona fide, and does not act from any indirect or malicious motive.. The 1946 Act required that the person affected shall have his case considered by the machinery of the Act and not by a completely independent body, but the point of that Act is to provide that what the person has to say in his own defence, should not go unheard. He will be heard and his representations will be taken into account.
Therefore, I ask the House to say that the major case in favour of this Amend- 1964 ment has collapsed because it was based upon a mistaken view in regard to what the compensation should be. With re. Bard to the rest of the case, when one bears in mind the nature of the Commission and the task with which it is entrusted on behalf of the public, it follows that it should be the decision of the Commission, subject to a hearing being given to the person affected, which should determine whether or not a particular plot of land should be acquired. For those reasons, I say that it is perfectly proper that the Commission should have the right, subject to following up the necessary procedure, to acquire land provided the necessary compensation is paid. I ask the House to say that the Clause should stand as it is.

§ Mr. Assheton
There are 123 Clauses and 15 Schedules in this Bill and we are still at Clause 8. Eheu! fugaces, Soskice. Soskice.

§ Mr. Sparks (Acton)
Would the right hon. Gentleman speak in English so that hon. Members can understand?

§ Mr. Assheton
The learned Solicitor-General used the words "res integra."

§ The Solicitor-General
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not add the word labuntur.

§ Mr. Assheton
I am afraid I cannot accept the argument which the learned Solicitor-General has put before the House. Of course, I am glad to learn that the 1939 price level is not intended to apply to this Bill, though my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) could not necessarily have been aware of the proceedings on the Town and Country Planning Bill as he has been so actively engaged upstairs with the rest of us on the Transport Bill. I accept the statement that it is the intention of the Government that that shall become law. Judging by the experience of the last few months, the intentions of the Government with regard to these matters have been implemented.
I do not think that the learned Solicitor-General really met the other point which hon. Gentlemen behind me take so seriously. It is admitted that land includes the buildings upon it. Here, we are giving the Transport Commission power to purchase compulsorily any land, 1965 and that means any buildings upon the land. The Transport Commission may take a fancy to a garage or hotel owned by some private interest which is in competition with it. It would be rather like giving the "Co-ops" the right to buy compulsorily small shops, to which they took a fancy, and I do not think that hon. Members on this side of the House

1966

§ should be expected to agree to that proposition. I do not propose to argue the matter further. The issue between us is clear, and I can only advise my hon. Friends to press this matter to a Division.

§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

§ The House divided: Ayes. 131: Noes, 266.

1967

Division No. 159.]	AYES.	[4.1 p.m.
Aitken, Hon. Max	Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)	Nield, B. (Chester)
Amory, D. Heathcoat	Harris, H. Wilson	Noble, Comdr. A. H. P
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.	Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V	Nutting, Anthony
Baldwin, A. E.	Haughton, S. G.	Orr-Ewing, I. L.
Barlow, Sir J.	Head, Brig. A. H.	Peake, Rt. Hon. O
Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.	Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.	Peto, Brig. C. H. M
Beechman, N. A.	Henderson, John (Cathcart)	Pickthorn, K.
Bennett, Sir P	Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)	Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Birch, Nigel	Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)	Poole, O B. S. (Oswestry)
Boothby, R.	Hulbert, Wing-Comdr. N. J	Prescott, Stanley
Bowen, R.	Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)	Prior-Palmer, Brig. O
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.	Jeffreys, General Sir G.	Rayner, Brig. R
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W	Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L. W.	Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.	Keeling, E. H.	Renton, D
Bullock, Capt. M.	Kendall, W. D.	Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)
Byers, Frank	Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H	Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.	Lambert, Hon. G.	Ropner, Col. L.
Cole, T. L.	Lancaster, Col. C. G.	Ross, Sir R.
Conant, Maj. R. J. E.	Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.	Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A
Cooper-Key, E. M.	Linstead, H. N.	Scott, Lord W.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E	Lipson, D. L.	Shepherd, S. (Newark)
Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.	Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)	Spearman, A. C. M.
Cuthbert, W. N.	Low, Brig. A. R. W.	Spence, H. R.
Darling, Sir W. Y.	Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.	Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.
Davies, Clement (Montgomery)	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.	Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)
Digby, S. W.	MacAndrew, Col. Sir C	Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)
Dodds-Parker, A. D.	McCallum, Maj. D.	Sutcliffe, H.
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)	Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)	Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Drayson, G. B.	Mackeson, Brig. H. R.	Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)
Drewe, C.	McKie, J. H. (Galloway)	Teeling, William
Duthie. W. S	Maclay, Hon. J. S.	Thorneycroft, G. E P. (Monmouth)
Eden, Rt. Hon. A	Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)	Thorp, Lt.-Col R. A. F
Erroll, F. J.	Macpherson, Maj, N. (Dumfries)	Touche, G. C.
Foster, J. G. (Northwich)	Maitland, Comdr. J. W.	Vane, W. M. F.
Fox, Sir G.	Manningham-Buller, R. E.	Wadsworth, G.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)	Marsden, Capt. A.	Walker-Smith, D.
Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.	Marshall, D. (Bodmin)	Ward, Hon. G. R.
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)	Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)	Wheatley, Colonel M. J.
Glyn, Sir R.	Medlicott, F.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G	Mellor, Sir J.	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Grant, Lady	Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)	York, C.
Granville, E. (Eye)	Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)
Gridley, Sir A.	Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Grimston, R. V.	Neven-Spence, Sir B.	Commander Agnew and
Gruffydd, Prof. W. J	Nicholson, G	Mr. Studholme
NOES.
Adams, Richard (Balham)	Berry, H	Butler, H. W. (Hackney. S.)
Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)	Beswick, F.	Callaghan, James
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)	Bing, G. H. C.	Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)	Binns, J.	Chamberlain, R. A.
Alpass, J. H.	Blackburn, A. R.	Champion, A. J.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)	Blyton, W. R.	Chater, D.
Attewell, H. C.	Bottomley, A. G.	Chetwynd, G. R.
Attlee, Rt Hon. C R	Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.	Clitherow, Dr. R.
Austin, H. L	Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)	Cocks, F. S.
Awbery, S. S.	Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)	Collindridge, F
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B	Braddock, T. (Mitcham)	Collins, V. J.
Bacon, Miss A	Bramall, Major E. A.	Colman, Miss G. M
Balfour, A.	Brook, D. (Halifax)	Comyns, Dr. L
Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J.	Brown, George (Belper)	Cook, T. F.
Barstow, P. G	Brown, T. J. (Ince)	Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G
Barton, C.	Bruce, Major D. W. T	Corlett, Dr. J.
Battley, J. R.	Buchanan, G	Cove, W. G.
Bechervaise, A E	Burden, T. W.	Crawley, A
Benson, G.	Burke, W. A.	Daggar, G
Davies, Edward (Burslem)	Kinley, J.	Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)	Kirkwood, D.	Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Davies, Harold (Leek)	Lavers, S.	Sargood, R.
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)	Lee, F. (Hulme)	Scollan, T.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)	Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)	Scott-Elliot, W.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)	Leslie, J R.	Shackleton, E. A A.
Deer, G.	Levy, B. W.	Sharp, Granville
Delargy, Captain H. J.	Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)	Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Diamond, J.	Lewis, T. (Southampton)	Shurmer, P.
Dobbie, W.	Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.	Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Dodds, N. N.	Logan, D. G.	Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.
Driberg, T. E. N.	Longden, F.	Smith, C. (Colchester)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)	Lyne, A. W.	Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)
Dumpleton, C. W.	McAdam, W.	Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Durbin, E. F. M.	McEntee, V. La T	Snow, Capt. J. W.
Dye, S.	McGhee, H. G.	Soskice, Maj. Sir F.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.	McKay, J. (Wallsend)	Sparks, J. A.
Edelman, M.	Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)	Stamford, W.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)	McKinlay, A. S.	Stephen, C.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)	Maclean, N. (Govan)	Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Evans, John (Ogmore)	McLeavy, F.	Strauss, G R. (Lambeth)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)	Macpherson, T. (Romford)	Stubbs, A. E.
Ewart, R.	Mallalieu, J. P. W.	Swingler, S.
Farthing, W. J.	Mann, Mrs. J.	Sylvester, G. O.
Field, Captain W. J.	Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)	Symonds, A. L.
Follick, M.	Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)	Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Foot, M. M.	Marquand, H. A.	Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Forman, J. C.	Mathers, G.	Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)	Monslow, W.	Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Freeman, Peter (Newport)	Montague, F.	Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Gallacher, W.	Moody, A. S.	Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.	Morley, R.	Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Gibbins, J.	Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)	Thurtle, Ernest
Gilzean, A.	Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)	Tiffany, S.
Gordon-Walker, P. C.	Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)	Timmons, J.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)	Mort, D. L.	Titterington, M. F.
Grenfell, D. R.	Moyle, A.	Tolley, L.
Grey, C. F.	Nally, W.	Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.
Grierson, E.	Naylor, T. E.	Turner-Samuels, M.
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)	Neal, H. (Claycross)	Vernon, Maj. W. F.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)	Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)	Viant, S. P.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden	Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)	Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Gunter, R. J.	Noel-Buxton, Lady	Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Guy, W. H.	O'Brien, T.	Warbey, W. N.
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)	Oldfield, W. H.	Watkins, T. E.
Hall, W. G.	Oliver, G. H.	Watson, W. M.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.	Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)	Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)	Parkin, B, T.	Weitzman, D.
Hardy, E. A.	Paton, Mrs. F.(Rushcliffe)	Wells P. L. (Faversham)
Harrison, J.	Paton, J. (Norwich)	Wells, W. T. (Walsall)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville	Pearson, A.	West, D. G.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)	Peart, Capt. T. F.	White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Hicks, G.	Piratin, P.	Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Hobson, C. R.	Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)	Wilkes, L.
Holman, P	Popplewell, E.	Wilkins, W. A.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)	Porter, E. (Warrington)	Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)
Hoy, J.	Porter, G. (Leeds)	Williams, D. J. (Neath)
Hubbard, T.	Price, M. Philips	Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.)	Pritt, D. N.	Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Proctor, W. T.	Williams, W. R. (Heston)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)	Pryde, D. J.	Williamson, T.
Janner, B.	Pursey, Cmdr. H.	Willis, E.
Jay, D. P. T.	Randall, H. E.	Wills, Mrs. E. A.
John, W.	Ranger, J.	Wise, Major F. J.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)	Rankin, J.	Wyatt, W.
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)	Reeves, J.	Yates, V. F.
Jonas, J. H. (Bolton)	Reid, T. (Swindon)	Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)	Rhodes, H.	Younger, Hon. Kenneth
Keenan, W.	Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
King, E. M.	Robens, A.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.	Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)	Mr. Simmonds Mr. Daines.