HC Deb 27 August 1907 vol 182 cc402-4
* MR. REES (Montgomery Boroughs)

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, if the preliminary and extended course for secondary education are eliminated, there will still remain a difference of £2 5s. a head on the ordinary course in favour of England as compared with the corresponding figure for Wales per pupil, the total grants for the course in England being £20, as against £17 15s. for Wales; and, if so, whether, seeing that the Welsh ratepayer will pay more per head on secondary scholars than the ratepayer in England, and that there are more secondary scholars in proportion to the population in Wales than in England, he will consider the desirability of reconsidering the proposed differentiation of Government grants for secondary education.

The following Questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper—

MR. REES

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether, under the recent notification of his Department in this behalf, it is only in the fourth year that the Welsh secondary school pupil will attain the maximum grant of £5, which the English pupil enjoys from the first year of his course; and whether he will reconsider a differentiation by which, in the absence of explanation, the Welsh pupil is prejudiced.

MR. REES

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether in the ease of Welsh secondary schools no grant is given under the new regulations for certain years of school instruction, whereas in the case of most of the English schools payment is made for all the years of the course; and whether he will reconsider this differentiation, in order to the equal treatment of Welsh schools.

MR. REES

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether, under the recent regulations for secondary education, no grant is allowed in Wales for children under twelve, while in England grants are provided for such children; and whether, if this be the case, he will reconsider this differentiation in order to redress the inequality established.

MR. REES

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether the amount of secondary school teaching in Wales is, proportionately to population, much greater than in England; whether, if that be the case, the Welsh rate paper is unfairly mulcted when grants are allocated upon a basis of population instead of upon the basis of the work actually done; and whether he will reconsider the allocation already made in view to a fairer distribution as between Wales and England in this behalf.

MR. McKENNA

In reply to this and the four following Questions, my hon. friend, as I have already stated, is under a misapprehension in instituting these comparisons between the grants paid on account of secondary schools in England and Wales respectively. The share of the amount allotted to Wales is based not on population, but on the actual grants paid to Wales for this purpose in the last three years.

* MR. REES

asked whether it was the case that grants were not paid in Wales to children until they reached the age of twelve, and whether subsequently to that date they did not draw less in proportion than England; further, whether, seeing that only two out of 100 Welsh schools failed to earn the full normal grant whereas one in four in England failed, it was not advisable that some arrangement should be made whereby the Welsh schools instead of being penalised for greater efficiency should be put on an equality with similar schools in England.

MR. McKENNA

My hon. friend is mistaken. These grants are not paid to the children, but to the schools, and it has been determined that Wales on the whole is entitled to one-eleventh of the grant England as a whole is entitled to.

* MR. REES

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that I meant paid on account of, and not to, the children, and may I ask him further whether the misapprehension under which I labour in this matter is not shared by the Welsh people, and particularly by those who learnt arithmetic in his own schools?

MR. McKENNA

Here again my hon. friend is mistaken. This misapprehension was shared by a large number of persons in Wales, but they have long since been convinced of their error.

* MR. REES

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman in what way he has acquired the knowledge that all who shared what he calls my misapprehension have now lost it, and whether it is not the case that grants to Welsh intermediate schools work out at 20s. a head as against 22s. in England in the case in which the comparison is least unfavourable to Wales?

MR. McKENNA

No, Sir. My hon. friend is mistaken in that.

MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Kildare, N.)

On what basis is the one eleventh made out, is it population?

MR. McKENNA

On the basis of the actual amount which has been expended for these purposes in the two countries for the last three years.

Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR

Which two countries?

MR. McKENNA

England and Wales.