HC Deb 05 May 1902 vol 107 cc633-5
MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL (Oldham)

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the Notice of Motion standing on the Order Book for a Select Committee to consider and report whether the present method of controlling and allocating expenditure in and between the various public Departments is the best that can be devised; and what countenance the Government will give to such Motion.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

In answer to my hon. friend, I have to say that I * See (4) Debates, cv., 53. have been considering the statistics of the growth of expenditure since 1894–1895; and I have come to the conclusion, as I think my hon. friend would come to the conclusion if he looked at the figures, that the growth of expenditure depends, not upon what I may call extravagance, but on policy. It is not because there is any laxity in the supervision of expenditure, but because it has seemed to the House of Commons and to the Government that certain kinds of expenditure should be undertaken. For instance, my hon. friend will find that by far the largest items of growth are the Army and the Navy. If I remember rightly, the next largest growth is the Education Department, and there is also a large growth in the Post Office Department, directly due, of course, to the pressure put by the House of Commons, and by the results of the various Commissions investigating the remuneration of Post Office employees.

MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN (Kilkenny)

There has also been a large growth of profit in the Post Office.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

There is besides that, no doubt, a large growth, or at all events a considerable growth, not large in comparison with the items I have just mentioned, in connection with colonial and foreign policy; but this again is directly due to policy which could not be decided by a Committee. I do not think, under these circumstances, that any good would result from the appointment of a Committee to consider the interchange of expenditure between different Departments. That is a responsibility which can only rest, as it seems to me, with the Treasury, and on which it would be impossible for the Government of the day to accept the advice of any Committee, however constituted. For these reasons, though I sympathise with the object my hon. friend has in view, I do not think any good would be gained by acceding to his request.

MR. ALFRED DAVIES

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since 1894 the ordinary expenses of Government have increased by about £25,000,000 per annum?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask me about figures, perhaps he will give me notice. The growth is very large, no doubt. I think perhaps it is as large as that.

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL

Will my right hon. friend endeavour to secure to the House the opportunity of discussing the general question of expenditure, on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, before any Amendment dealing with any special tax comes on?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

No, Sir. I really do not see precisely what is to be gained by such a discussion. We are all agreed that the growth of expenditure is very serious. There is no difference of opinion as to that on either side of the House. How can you discuss on the Finance Bill whether less ought to be spent on the Navy or on the Army, or on the Pacific cable or the Uganda railway? Those are questions which cannot with advantage, it seems to me, be discussed upon such an occasion as the Second Reading of the Finance Bill; and, if we are merely to deal in generalities as to the danger of the growth of expenditure, I am afraid our discussions can be only vague and somewhat barren.

MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL

Do I understand my right hon. friend to infer that nothing whatever can be done in this matter?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

If my hon. friend asks me if I think the expenditure can be diminished, I do not see my way to doing it unless you are prepared to reverse the policy which you have deliberately accepted as regards the great spending Departments.

MR. SWIFT MACNEILL

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this expenditure has increased by leaps and bounds since the automatic closuring of debate in Supply?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

No, Sir.