HC Deb 22 November 1994 vol 250 cc451-2
2. Mr. Mullin

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he last met representatives of the Indonesian Government to discuss co-operation between British and Indonesian armed forces; and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Roger Freeman)

My right hon. and learned Friend last visited Indonesia in May 1993 for discussions on security and defence matters of mutual interest. He met the Indonesian Minister of State for Research and Technology for similar discussions when he visited the United Kingdom in June 1993.

Mr. Mullin

It is common knowledge that a huge arms deal is being negotiated with Indonesia. Is the Minister aware that the regime in Indonesia is one of the most odious tyrannies in the world and that it came to power on the back of a bloodbath that has been matched only by Pol Pot in Asia in recent years? Has not much of the hardware that we previously sold to Indonesia been used for internal repression and will not some of the hard ware that we are about to sell also be used for internal repression? What assurances can the right hon. Gentleman give the House that that will not happen?

Mr. Freeman

A good deal of what the hon. Gentleman said comprised assertions and I would not agree with him. I shall deal with the three key issues. First, I am not aware of any so-called huge arms deal, other than the already announced 1993 contract for the supply of further Hawk aircraft. Secondly, the Government do not share the hon. Gentleman's judgment that the Government of Indonesia are an odious tyranny. Thirdly, on the use of aircraft against the civilian population— [Interruption.] I have studied the assertions made by the hon. Gentleman in the House recently, but I can find no evidence to support what he or the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) have said.

Sir Wyn Roberts

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that he has sought and obtained assurances from the Indonesian Government that weapons bought from this country will not be used against civilians in East Timor?

Mr. Freeman

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who exactly states the position as it is now and, indeed, as it has been for the past 20 years under previous Governments. Assurances have been received—

Mr. Mullin

indicated dissent.

Mr. Freeman

The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. Why does he not listen to the answer? Assurances have been received that the aircraft in question will not be used against the civilian population.

Mr. Corbyn

Is the Minister aware that, since the illegal occupation of East Timor, more than 200,000 East Timorese people have been killed by Indonesian Government forces? Is he further aware that information has now been published by the Timorese people showing that Hawk aircraft are used to bomb them and their positions? Is that not evidence enough to stop any further arms sales to an appalling regime which has perpetrated such a bloodbath against the Timorese people?

Mr. Freeman

I think that the House would share with the hon. Gentleman the view that any repression of the civil population in East Timor is to be regretted. Representations have been made to the Indonesian Government by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. If the hon. Gentleman will forward any allegations to me for my personal attention, I shall investigate them again.