SCOTLAND BILL (Hansard, 6 December 1977)

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)
On a point of order, Mr. Murton, about which I have given you notice. When we come to the complex financial provisions, possibly next week, could you give some idea, possibly the evening before—I am not implying any criticism of the Chair—as to which amendments you are likely to call? There is a huge number of amendments to the financial provisions on the Amendment Paper and it would be helpful for the Committee to know which you might choose.

§ The Chairman
I am grateful to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) for having given me notice of his point of order. I do not think it would be at all helpful to the Committee—it might, indeed, be harmful to the interests of individual Members—if I were to form any judgment about selection until such time as I am aware of all the amendments to be offered to the relevant parts of the Bill, excluding those starred, on the actual day of discussion.
It is the normal practice of the Chair not to make a selection until the morning of the day upon which a Bill is to be taken. I hope that by advancing the process to the previous day in respect of this Bill I have been helpful to the Committee. Further than that I cannot go.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Further to that point of order, Mr. Murton, I wish to ask questions about possible amendments and, through you, whether the Government intend to table amendments, first, on health and, secondly, on civil aviation. It will be known to you that over the weekend Mr. James Kyle, the Chairman of the Scottish Committee for Hospital Medical Services and Chairman of the Devolution Group of the Scottish Council of the 1141 British Medical Association, said that devolution would not be to the advantage of medicine in Scotland. He also said: Scottish doctors do not think the Bill will bring any improvement to the health care of the people of Scotland. Over the years the profession has had an amicable working relationship with the Scottish Home and Health Department and there does not appear to be any need for further devolution on health matters. Moreover, the intervention of a Scottish Assembly could well delay progress in the health field.…We have now discussed the Scotland Bill. An amendment has been tabled with a view to maintaining the status quo regarding the present situation of determining terms and conditions of service for doctors on a UK basis. Mr. Kyle is reported as saying that: the doctors would watch the progress of the Bill carefully. It was hoped another amendment would be tabled which would have the effect that matters of health—prevention, treatment and alleviation of disease or illness, including injury, disability and mental disorder, family planning and abortion—would continue to be funded as at present on a UK basis. My point of order is this: have you, Mr. Murton, received any amendment from the Government in the light of Mr. Kyle's remarks? Further, in relation to Clause 66, Mr. Norman Ashton Hill, Chairman of the Air Transport Committee of the Association of the British Chamber of Commerce, said in his letter to the Secretary of State for Trade: It would be intolerable for licensing arrangements for civil aviation to be treated in the cavalier fashion Clause 66 lays down As the Scotland Bill stands at present, a Minister may, by order, make provisions for the apportionment of any assets or liabilities of the British Airports Authority and may alter the financial limits under which the BAA operate. The Bill thus proposes to enable the breakup of the BAA in any manner which this or any successor Government may determine. Parliament is being invited to sign a blank cheque. The association do not believe that the future of the South East airports and the Scottish airports should, in effect, be removed from the supervision of Parliament. Mr. Hill went on to say: This is surely a matter which should be retained by the United Kingdom Government, as it could be used to prevent certain aircraft landing at airports. In any dispute between the Scottish Executive and the Department of Trade this devolution would be a highly effective method of reducing civil aviation to a shambles".

§ Mr. Harry Gourlay (Kirkcaldy)
On a point of order—

§ Mr. Dalyell
I am on a point of order.

§ Mr. Gourlay
This is an abuse of a point of order.

§ Mr. Dalyell
If civil aviation were to be in a shambles, my hon. Friend, like myself, would find it difficult to get here. It goes on: and we would be appalled at a more extensive division of licensing power. In conclusion, Mr. Hill said: We believe that the Scotland Bill opens the door to all manner of changes in the arrangements for civil aviation and airports throughout the United Kingdom"—

§ Mr. Gourlay
On a point of order—

§ The Chairman
Order. I was going to make a comment when the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) had finished his point of order.

§ Mr. Gourlay
He has said too much already.

§ The Chairman
That is as may be. What I was going to say, first, was very much along the lines already suggested, with which I agree—that it is an abuse of the rules when raising points of order to go on at length. My answer to the second point will be, unlike the hon. Member for West Lothian's submission, very brief. Like all other members of the Committee, I do not expect to have any knowledge of forthcoming amendments from any quarter until they appear on the Order Paper.

§ Mr. William Small (Glasgow, Garscadden)
In order to protect ourselves, is there any "Index Expurgatorious" so that we can have remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) expunged from the record because they were not a point of order?

§ Mr. Dalyell
Further to that point of order, Mr. Murton. We are in some difficulty on amendments because the truth of the matter is that the more the various technical and professional groups get to know about this Bill in Scotland the less they like it.

§ The Chairman
That is not a matter for the Chair.