HC Deb 08 March 1972 vol 832 cc1451-2
Mr. Speaker

Mr. Freeson, on a different point of order.

Mr. Freeson

I do not believe that from a parliamentary point of view the answer which the Minister has given, at your request, meets the point which the House is seeking to hear. An hon. Member has been accused of receiving stolen goods. If I may put to you—

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a different point of order. This is really not a matter of order. If hon. Members have strong feelings about this matter—and I am not pronouncing on whether it is right or wrong—there are other ways of proceeding.

Mr. Rose

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have to try to administer the Standing Orders. It is not always a very easy task. I have to try to prevent points of order being raised about matters which are not matters of order. I ruled that if there was any suggestion of a criminal charge being made against an hon. Member that should be withdrawn. My understanding is that that has been withdrawn. [HON. MEMBERS "No."] Is that not so?

Mr. Amery

rose—

Hon. Members

Withdraw!

Mr. Speaker

Order. I should very much like the right hon. Gentleman to say "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Amery

There is no question of my having to withdraw as I never made any charge. [Interruption.] I have not made any charge—

Mr. Raphael Tuck

Say it outside the House.

Mr. Amery

—of any criminal action by the hon. Member, but, if any hon. Member thought that that was my intention, I should like to correct it and to that extent withdraw it. What I was trying to make plain—

Hon. Members

No! Sit down!

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think we had better get on. As I understood it, the right hon. Gentleman has withdrawn any suggestion that there was any allegation of a criminal charge, and there the matter must rest.

Mr. Rose

On a point of order. May I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on this point? As it is obviously unparliamentary for an hon. Member to accuse another hon. Member of a criminal offence—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Is this a different point of order?

Mr. Rose

Perhaps if I were done the courtesy of being allowed to continue with the point of order, it might appear that that is the case. The point of order is that words were used which were indicative of an action which by any interpretation must of itself constitute a criminal offence. Whether or not it is withdrawn in the manner that has been done by the right hon. Gentleman with that qualification, if by definition the receipt of an article which is stolen is a criminal offence—which it is in law—the right hon. Gentleman must make an unqualified withdrawal and not a qualified withdrawal. I ask your ruling on that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

I take the hon. Member's remarks, particularly the initial ones, to be a reflection on the Chair. If he wants to proceed on that he must table a Motion. Dr. Cunningham, on a new point of order.

Mr. George Cunningham

Given the exaggerated sanctity which this House attaches to precedents, may I ask your assistance, Mr. Speaker, in the light of something you said a few minutes ago, that if a Minister makes a remark about an hon. Member he takes responsibility for that? May I know whether, if the Minister makes a remark which you construe to be unparliamentary, that must be required to be withdrawn whether the Minister takes responsibility for it or not?

Mr. Speaker

Of course.