Crime Prevention

HC Deb 31 January 1968 vol 757 cc1317-20

3. Mr. Monro

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now introduce legislation to curb the crime wave in Scotland.

13. Mr. Galbraith

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he intends taking to combat the growth of crimes of violence.

21. Mr. Buchanan-Smith

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take to deal with the rising number of crimes of violence.

38. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has now concluded all his consultations with interested parties on the question of new criminal legislation; and when he expects to introduce such legislation.

47. Mr. Dempsey

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what measures he now proposes to take to reverse the growing crime wave and increases in acts of violence, in view of his recent discussions with interested parties; and if he will make a statement.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Norman Buchan)

As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend, the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson), on 23rd January—[Vol. 757, c. 100–101]—he is still considering the proposal to give the police a power of search under the Prevention of Crime Act. But I believe that for the prevention of crime we must chiefly look to social measures within the existing powers of local authorities, the police and voluntary organisations and to the co-operation of the public. For this reason I have undertaken the task of surveying this field and, where appropriate, encouraging fresh initiatives for the prevention of crime.

Mr. Monro

Why is it that, if the Department is so keen to do something about this, the hon. Gentleman's Government blocked the Private Member's Bill to include search for offensive weapons last Friday afternoon?

Mr. Buchan

As I said, this question is still open; the hon. Member understands the procedure of the House as well as I do. The exclusion in that Bill of a specific power of arrest would imply that it already existed in common law. It therefore follows that the subsection of the Prevention of Crime Act under which an arrest can be made "with reasonable cause to believe" is an extension of that common law power. If that were so, it would obviate the need for powers of search altogether.

Mr. Galbraith

How long will the hon. Gentleman go on considering this? Does he realise that people are extremely concerned? If motorists have to put up with the breathalyser, surely people who carry weapons should be treated more rigorously?

Mr. Buchan

There has been no delay on this matter. The Act gives the police power to arrest where they have reasonable cause to believe that a weapon is being carried. We are now being asked —this is why we and hon. Members opposite should give thought to this—to compel the police to prove that a weapon is being carried before arresting. This fight weaken, rather than strengthen, their powers.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

However laudable these long-term considerations may be, does the hon. Gentleman not realise that this situation is becoming explosive in the short-term and that, particularly among the police, there is a real sense of frustration and a feeling they are not getting the backing from him and his hon. Friends in dealing with crime in Scotland?

Mr. Buchan

I do not think that it helps when hon. Members opposite use such words as "explosive". On the police, it is precisely because of the possible extra risk to them involved under the request for search that we must also consider this. Whether they might be better protected without such powers is something which we would consider.

Mr. Hamilton

Does my hon. Friend agree that one way of combating this increase in crime is to increase police recruitment? Can he give any figures to show whether or not there has been an improvement in the last three years or otherwise?

Mr. Buchan

Yes, I agree completely with what my hon. Friend says. The interesting figures, especially when one considers the manpower available to the police, including officers and full-time civilians, are that, from 1962, the number rose by about 1,500, from 10,817 to 12,284. The manpower of the police themselves rose from 9,692 in 1962 to 10,247 and we are making earnest efforts to increase this rate.

Mr. Dempsey

Is my hon. Friend aware that recently an innocent died as a result of an attack by someone using steel combs? Does he realise that the police felt that they did not have adequate powers to make a search, and that, if they had those powers, this element of detection would probably help to prevent such crimes? Would he act before it is too late?

Mr. Buchan

Again, there is absolutely no proof that extended powers of search would have stopped this specific case. We must not spread this kind of irresponsible statement. I assure my hon. Friend that his view is not universally shared by the police.

Mr. MacArthur

Will the hon. Gentleman move quickly from consideration to action? Will he not recognise that there is a growing and responsible demand for a power of search in circumstances of this kind? Would he not, if only as an interim measure, consider a power of search for the police for a limited experimental period?

Mr. Buchan

This is one of the aspects which we are considering, and I agree that there is a responsible attitude as well as that shown by the kind of irresponsible requests which we have heard this afternoon. We are examining this time factor also. A good deal has been done, especially following my meetings with the Glas- gow magistrates, including the establishment of the working party to take positive action to deal with the social problems, which in Glasgow is also a fruitful line of development.

Mr. Lawson

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that many of us think that his course of action is the right one, but that those who have studied this question think that it is exceedingly difficult to know exactly what the Glasgow police are asking for, even when they see it in black and white? Would he therefore continue his close study and not give way to political pressure by hon. Members opposite?

Mr. Buchan

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. Glasgow magistrates yesterady requested the Chief Constable to seek a meeting with the Lord Advocate to get further clarification of the powers as we have already outlined them to him.

Mr. Noble

Will the hon. Member not consider that his use of words just now was a little wrong? Hon. Members on both sides of the House, as well as policemen on both sides of this question are acting entirely responsibly, in their view, in trying to get a very serious problem across. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to take some action.

Mr. Buchan

I accept, of course, that there is a legitimate anxiety and responsible expression of view on this. What I was suggesting was that some of the exaggerated statements made about this subject do not help anyone—not the police, the magistrates or ourselves—and I hope that we will see this kind of restraint in pressing for these measures.