HC Deb 14 July 1966 vol 731 cc1721-33
Mr. Heath

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Herbert Bowden)

Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY, 18TH JULY—:We shall ask the House to approve a timetable Motion for the remaining stages of the Selective Employment Payments Bill.

On the same day the Committee stage of the Bill itself will be put in place, so that if the House decides the Question on the:imetable Motion before 10 o'clock it would be possible to make progress on the Committee stage of the Bill.

TUESDAY, 19TH JULY—:Third Reading of the Finance Bill.

Remaining stages of the Malawi Republic Bill [Lords].

Motion on the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Order.

WEDNESDAY, 20TH JULY—:Remaining stages of the Industrial Development Bill.

THURSDAY, 21ST JULY—:Selective Employment Payments Bill.

Committee [First Allotted Day].

FRIDAY, 22ND JULY—:Private Members' Bills.

MONDAY, 25TH JULY—:The proposed business will be: Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill.

Mr. Heath

Is the Leader of the House aware that in guillotining the Selective Employment Payments Bill [Interruption.] —:let the right hon. Gentleman wait—:he is guillotining a Bill which affects every industry and firm in the country, 10 million people employed in them, 000 million being paid out, a Bill to which there are nearly 300 serious Amendments on the Notice Paper, many of them put down by the right hon. Gentleman's own supporters, and that there is no justification for trying to guillotine a Bill unless there is a shortage of time or deliberate obstruction in some part of the House? So far as this Bill is concerned we on this side of the House are prepared to go on sitting in order to give it proper consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that this is a Bill which you, Mr. Speaker, may find it necessary to certify as a Money Bill, in which case it will not be amendable in the House of Lords and will not have proper discussion in this House? Moreover, it will go against the spirit of every assurance which the Leader of the House has so far given on this Bill.

Let the Leader of the House be assured that this is a disgraceful action by the Government, who, because of their own incompetence, are turning more and more to authoritarian methods?

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of order. Is the right hon. Gentleman—[HoN. MEMBERS:"Sit down."] Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to make a speech dealing with the merits of a particular piece of legislation when he is asking a business question? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The noise is a little too much like the real guillotine noises. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition is perfectly in order, but he must not speak at too great length.

Mr. Heath

This is a matter, I think the whole House will agree, of the utmost importance. I ask the Leader of the House what precedent there is for guillotining a Bill of this kind in the House. I cannot find a single precedent for it. Let the right hon. Gentleman be assured that we shall fight this every inch of the way.

Mr. Bowden

It would probably be more appropriate to debate the timetable Motion on Monday, but may I reply to one or two points? There are four precedents for timetabling Finance Bills in the current century. There is also a precedent of a Conservative Government timetabling a Bill in 1952 before the Committee stage was started— [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. We must hear each other on business questions.

Mr. Bowden

On this particular Bill, the Leader of the Opposition suggested that one reason for timetabling would be if there had been deliberate obstruction. I am not accusing the Opposition of deliberate obstruction, but there are 300 Amendments down to a 12-Clause Bill and many of those Amendments could undoubtedly be grouped in one or two debates.

When the timetable Motion is seen—we cannot debate it now; it will he tabled today by the Government—I think that the House will probably agree that we have done what I promised to do, provided adequate time. In fact, we are providing the amount of time which, according to The Times, the Opposition would require.

Mr. Heath

May I press the Leader of the House on this point? There is no precedent for guillotining a possible money Bill before the Committee stage has started. Will he confirm that'? Secondly, will he confirm that the time he is to give, three days in the Committee—

Mr. Speaker

We cannot debate the Guillotine now. The right hon. Member must do that on Monday.

Mr. Heath

The point is, Sir, whether, in his business statement for next week, the Leader of the House should include the proposal to have a day for the guillotine Motion. I submit that I am entitled to put the point that there is no precedent for his doing this in the statement of business for next week.

May I tell the right hon. Gentleman [HON. MEMBERS:"No."J May I ask him to bear in mind that there is no truth in the report that the Opposition are satisfied with three days in Committee and one day alone for Report and Third Reading? That is making a farce of Parliament.

Mr. Bowden

As I said earlier, perhaps we had better discuss the details when the Motion is before the House. As is usual, out of courtesy the Opposition have been given a copy of the Motion which is to he tabled today. It is unfair to the House as a whole to discuss the details of that Motion now.

Mr. Woodburn

Could the Leader of the House arrange for private circulation of the speeches to be delivered on Monday, which will be a repetition of the speeches which have been delivered on every guillotine Motion for 50 years, with all the synthetic indignation which is displayed on these occasions? If my suggestion were followed, it might save a day, thus providing an extra day for the Bill.

Mr. Bowden

I have already said that, if the House so wishes we can give some time to the Bill on Monday. This is a matter for the House. One learns on reading the debates which have taken place on timetable Motions over the years—there have been so many of them since 1877—that it is always the case that the Opposition of the day, whichever party is in opposition, shouts"gag"and opposes it.

Mr. Turton

Is the Leader of the House aware that the weakness of the guillotine procedure always is that important Amendments receive no adequate discussion? Therefore, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, when he is drawing up his guillotine Motion, that there are very many quite different interests and industries involved and secure that they are not shut out from the discussion by the timetable Motion'?

Mr. Bowden

I will try to meet the House in this as far as is possible, within the number of days which the Government feel is adequate for the discussion. I think that we can come to some arrangement as to the division of time within that number of days.

Mr. Rankin

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some time ago we were promised a debate on the Brambell Report which, among other things, deals with new methods in farming? Could my right hon. Friend control the Leader of the Opposition so as to give us another half day to deal with this Report before the House rises?

Mr. Bowden

I have said on a number of occasions that, if it is possible to find time before the Summer Recess for a debate on the Brambell Report, I will do so. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister is likely to be replying to a Question on this very shortly.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

Is the Leader of the House aware that so many people will be affected by the Selective Employment Payments Bill that Parliament will be brought into disrepute if it is not adequately discussed? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what happened at the consultations which we all know go on before business is announced? How many days were offered to the Opposition? What did they turn down?

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is really a matter for debate on Monday.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

Mr. Speaker, I submit that this does matter. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh."] May I put my point?

Mr. Speaker

I am not questioning the hon. Gentleman's right to submit that it does matter. I am suggesting that the time to debate issues like that is on Monday when the timetable Motion is before the House.

Sir Harmar Nicholls

I wanted to put to the Leader of the House that it is important, before the authoritarian device of the guillotine is brought in, to see whether the Opposition's offer of restraint is reasonable. The House should know that before we approach the guillotine debate on Monday.

Mr. Bowden

I am sure that, on reflection, the hon. Gentleman would agree with me that it would be quite unwise, in the interests of the House and of Parliament itself, ever to discuss across the Floor exchanges which have taken place through the usual channels.

Mr. Iain Macleod

Would the Leader of the House accept that the only reason—I have put this forward myself as Leader of House—for a timetable Motion is always shortage of time? Would the right hon. Gentleman take into account that we on this side of the House are prepared to sit in August, or in September—[HON. MEMBERS:"Or in the mornings?"] Yes, or in the mornings, or to come back earlier in October?

Mr. Sydney Silverman

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance? How far is it in order this afternoon to discuss a timetable Motion which is not before us and which is to be moved next Monday?

Mr. Speaker

I wish the hon. Gentleman would let Mr. Speaker do the task for which he is appointed.

Mr. Iain Macleod

Since time for discussion is of the essence in this matter, since these repayments do not have to start until next February at the earliest, and because we are prepared to sit in any of the three months I have mentioned, will the Leader of the House change his mind at once about the necessity for this guillotine Motion?

Mr. Bowden

I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman's view. I do not know whether it is shared by the whole of his colleagues. [HON. MEMBERS:"Hear, hear."] Right hon. and hon. Members opposite cheer before they have heard me. The right hon. Gentleman is reported as saying that the Conservative Party is not interested in the Recess or holidays until September. That has been noted. We will, in fact, be sitting a very long way into August. There is no question whatever about that.

On the question of the importance of getting the Royal Assent to the Selective Employment Payments Bill, may I remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House as a whole that, if these repayments are to be made as early as we would like them to be made, the machinery and the administrative work has to be done in the Departments. Those responsible cannot begin that work until such time as they know how the Bill emerges after the Royal Assent.

Mr. Lubbock

Has the Leader of the House noticed Motion No. 132 on the Order Paper in the names of myself and a number of my hon. Friends, dealing with a question of privilege, namely, the relationship between the right hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Cousins) and the Transport and General Workers' Union?

[That the matter of the contractual relationship between the Right honourable Member for Nuneaton and the Transport and General Workers' Union, controlling or limiting the member's complete independence and freedom of speech and stipulating that he shall act as the representative of that union in regard to certain matters to be transacted in Parliament, be referred to the Committee of Privileges.]

Is it not gravely unsatisfactory that an important question of privilege, which may affect right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House, should be left unresolved for an indefinite time because of a stupid and illogical rule about the time within which a privilege question can be raised?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman must put a business question.

Mr. Lubbock

Will the Leader of the House find at least half a day for a debate on this Motion?

Mr. Bowden

It is not for me to comment on whether the rule that a privilege question must be raised at the earliest possible opportunity is stupid. This is a matter that the Select Committee on Privileges, which is looking at this sort of question, can look at immediately. Four hon. Members have signed this Motion, so there does not seem to be a great deal of interest in the House in this matter.

Mr. John Hynd

In view of the considerable, and in some cases disturbing, developments in road and rail transport will my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that there will be a debate on transport as soon as possible?

Mr. Bowden

I cannot promise a debate before the Summer Recess, whenever that may be. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will be making a statement or issuing a White Paper very shortly.

Mr. Peyton

Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Prime Minister to move the guillotine Motion on Monday next, as many of us feel that such a shabby proposal would come better from him than from anyone else?

Mr. Speaker

Sir Barnett Janner. [Interruption.]

Sir B. Janner

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot debate, nor can business questions be dealt with, if there is shouting across the Floor of the House.

Sir B. Janner

May I ask my right hon. Friend again whether he will give attention to Motion No. 99, which stands in the names of more than 160 Members on both sides of the House, and of all shades of political opinion, in relation to the serious methods which are being adopted at present in Soviet Russia with regard to the Jewish minority which is not allowed to develop itself culturally or in a religious sense?

[That this House notes with concern the continuing difficulties confronting Jews in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to use its good offices to secure for them the basic human rights afforded to other Soviet citizens.]

Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to give us an opportunity of debating this matter before the Recess?

Mr. Bowden

I have replied on this matter during business questions on one or two occasions. As I have said, there is great interest and sympathy in the whole House. I cannot promise time for debate, but my hon. Friend might avail himself of the opportunities on the Adjournment or on some other occasion—the Consolidated Fund Bill, perhaps.

Mr. Gibson-Watt

As the Government have decided to take time on Monday to guillotine the Selective Employment Payments Bill and the tax is so important to the disabled, the old and the part-time workers, in particular in Wales, will the Leader of the House say whether it is the Government's intention to give time for a debate on Wales before we rise for the Recess? Or is it to be shoved into the back end of the winter, near Christmas?

Mr. Bowden

It is our intention to provide the usual opportunities on the Floor of the House and upstairs in Committee for a discussion of Welsh affairs.

Mr. Michael Foot

In view of the statement of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. lain Macleod) that he is ready, if not eager, to sit in the mornings to discuss the Selective Employment Payments Bill—[Hon. MEMBERS:"He did not say that."] He also said that he would be willing to sit in the mornings—can my right hon. Friend say whether the Motion on Monday can be amended to incorporate the right hon. Gentleman's offer?

Mr. Bowden

Yes, Sir. The Motion is capable of Amendment if anyone wishes to move an Amendment.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the effect of guillotining a Bill both as to Committee and Report stages is that a substantial amount of the provisions go on the Statute Book without detailed Parliamentary discussion? Does he recall that the guillotining of both stages was never done in Parliament until 1947, when it was introduced for the Transport Act and the Town and Country Planning Act, both of which Measures—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We are due to debate the guillotine Motion on Monday. This is the time for business questions.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

I appreciate that, Mr. Speaker. With respect, I was about to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of these very unsatisfactory precedents, he will change next Monday's business.

Mr. Bowden

Perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman would like me to add another precedent—the Transport Act, 1952, under a Conservative Administration.

Mr. Dickens

Will my right hon. Friend make arrangements to enable the House to have a full day's rebate on the economic situation before the Recess? Will he also bear in mind 12th August as a suitable date for right hon. and hon. Members opposite?

Mr. Bowden

If we were to choose 12th August, there might be a lot of grousing on that day. There is an opportunity to debate the economic situation on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill. in addition, if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is to make a statement today.

Mr. Stodart

In view of the Government's proposal to impose very heavy cuts in the subsidies given to the fishing fleet, with the heaviest falling on the smallest vessels, will we have ample time for debating the subject at a reasonable hour before the House rises?

Mr. Bowden

There will he the usual opportunities to debate fishing Orders before we rise for the Recess.

Mr. Binns

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, to hon. Members on this side of the House, a guillotine is just as distasteful as it is to many hon. Members opposite? Is he aware that we are quite prepared to consider starting the sittings of the House at 9 a.m. or 10 a.m. to try to give more Parliamentary time not only to business that hon. Members opposite want to discuss, but to business that many of us want to discuss?

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Before I call the next hon. Member, I remind the House that we have an important debate ahead of us. Seventy hon. Members are trying to catch my eye for that debate.

Mr. G. Campbell

Does the Leader of the House realise that the S.E.T. is a matter, to use the Prime Minister's words, of gravity and seriousness for Scotland? Will he ensure, before putting down the guillotine Motion, that we have adequate time to discuss those areas where, on the Treasury's own estimates. the amount of tax to be paid per employee will be much greater than in manufacturing areas?

Mr. Bowden

The Selective Employment Payments Bill is not concerned with the raising of the taxation, but with the repayments.

Mr. Henig

Will my right hon. Friend confirm to hon. Members on this side of the House—[HON. MEMBERS:"Stand up."]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The House is forgetting itself a little.

Mr. Henig

rose—

Mr. Woodburn

On a point of order Mr. Speaker. Is it not disgraceful that hon. Members with long experience should treat a new hon. Member with such discourtesy?

Mr. Speaker

I wish that the right hon. Gentleman would allow the Chair to control the House. That was the purpose of my intervention.

Mr. Henig

Will my right hon. Friend confirm to hon. Members on this side of the House that, if the guillotine Motion is passed by, say, 25 minutes to 4 o'clock on Monday afternoon, there will be one extra Parliamentary day available for discussing the Bill and that, if we go on discussing the Motion for several hours, those who wish to do so will be depriving the House of time to discuss the Bill?

Mr. Bowden

That is the position. If the Motion is approved early, there will, as I have said, be time until 10 o'clock that night for discussion of the Bill.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

If the right hon. Gentleman is successful on Monday in saving Parliamentary time with this disgraceful Motion, can he at least promise that one day will be devoted to Motion No. 133, which deals with another iniquitous burden on Scotland and is signed by more than half the Scottish hon. Members in the House?

[That this House deplores the decision of British Railways' Scotish Region to impose a supplementary"control ticket" charge of 5s. on all persons travelling by train on certain Scottish routes during the local summer holiday period, particularly in so far as it has applied to passengers travelling in trains where there is surplus accommodation and also in trains where a sleeper reservation charge has already been paid, considers that this is an unfair burden on families who are forced through no fault of their own to take their holidays at this time and calls for the immediate removal of this unfair supplementaryy charge.]

Mr. Bowden

The hon. Gentleman had better await the timetable Motion.

Mr. English

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that there is something wrong with the procedure of the House when we are likely to spend a whole day on Monday discussing the timetabling of a Bill which both sides honestly wish to discuss? Will he not also agree that it is about time that we had a Standing Order timetabling timetable motions, as is the practice in other legislatures deriving from this one?

Mr. Bowden

That is a matter that the Select Committee on Procedure may perhaps look into. Indeed, I think that the Committee has already done some work on it.

Sir F. Bennett

Before the House rises for the Recess, can we have a debate on the question of the supply of arms to Australia, New Zealand and the United States for possible use in Vietnam, since the confusion on the issue in this House is shared by everyone in those countries as well?

Mr. Bowden

We have recently had a foreign affairs debate, but the Opposition have five opportunities to choose subjects for debate between now and the Recess.

Mr. Raphael Tuck

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a strong case for a Standing Order limiting the speeches of hon. Members to 10 or 15 minutes?

Mr. Patrick Jenkin

Before tabling the guillotine Motion, will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who tabled 440 Amendments to last year's Finance Bill, when new taxes were hastily introduced? If the Selective Employment Payments Bill is not properly discussed, there will be chaos in many commercial and industrial enterprises.

Mr. Bowden

One cannot relate the happenings of last year to the completely different Bill of this year.

Mr. Winnick

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us are far less concerned about the guillotine Motion than about the fact that in the very important Second Reading debate which will take place later today only about half-a-dozen back-bench Members, from either side of the House, will be able to take part?

Mr. J. H. Osborn

In the interests of time and as it is vital that we should avoid discussing irrelevant Measures, in the interests of the economy as well as of the interests of time, will the Leader of the House consider not debating the Iron and Steel Bill on Monday week, but cancel it altogether?

Mr. Bowden

No, Sir. I have announced that the Second Reading of that Bill will be taken on Monday week, and that is the Government's intention.

Mr. Lipton

In view of one or two encouraging hints which he has dropped in the course of this afternoon, may we now take it from my right hon. Friend that, in response to popular request, the House will sit into the second or third week of August?

Mr. Bowden

Quite seriously, I would like to be able to offer the House, particularly those hon. Members who have children and who want to get away for the Recess, some firm dates, but I cannot possibly do so at the moment.

Mr. Gower

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the guillotine Motion? In view of the lack of proportion between a whole day considering the time to be devoted to the Bill and only three days to be spent on the Bill itself, cannot he give one or two extra days to this most important Measure?

Mr. Bowden

The answer to that is that if the House would decide to give us the Motion in a half day, or less, we would have an additional half day to discuss the Bill.

Mr. John Wells

Is it right to have the Closure put at 10 o'clock tonight if there are 73 Members on the back benches who wish to speak?

Mr. Bowden

It is usual and normal for the Second Reading debate on a Bill to end at 10 o'clock.