HC Deb 07 December 1966 vol 737 cc1505-10

Lords Amendment No. 12: In page 19, line 6, at end add: (1A) In determining the rateable value of any office premises which are to be rated by virtue of subsection (1) of this section, any part of the premises which is not used as an office or for office purposes, or for purposes ancillary to the use of the premises as an office or for office purposes, shall he disregarded.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

When I moved this Clause on Report I said that there was a danger that we might have to make alterations in the Clause before it finally reached a workable form, and I am afraid that prophecy has been shown to be only too true. We have had to make very substantial alterations. This Amendment provides for cases where office premises which are liable to be rated under the Clause may be used partly for operational purposes, in which case they would not be subject to rating. It is not intended that they should be rated separately, so the Amendment provides that the parts which are used for operational purposes shall be disregarded in determining the rateable value of the office premises.

Question put and agreed to. [Special Entry.]

Lords Amendment No. 13: In page 19, line 7, after "shall" insert "from time to time."

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment goes with the next one, in page 19, line 9. These Amendments pave the way for the Amendment in page 19, line 10 which is rather long and complicated. It enables the valuation officer to go to the appropriate Minister in cases of difficulty.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendment No. 15: In page 19, line 10, at end insert: (2A) A valuation officer may if he thinks fit, before making a proposal in pursuance of subsection (2) of this section in respect of any premises,—

  1. (a) raise a question as to whether the premises are situated on operational land of an authority to which this section applies; and
  2. (b) make an application to the appropriate Minister for the determination of the question in pursuance of the following provisions of this section;
and where a valuation officer makes such an application he shall, before the expiration of the period of seven days beginning with the date of the application, serve notice of it on the occupier of the premises and the rating authority for the area in which the premises are situated; and section 59 of the Rating and Valuation Act 1925 (which relates to the service of documents) shall apply to such a notice as it applies to the documents mentioned in that section. (2B) Where it is determined in consequence of an application under subsection (2A) of this section that the premises to which the application relates are not situated on operational land of the relevant authority to which this section applies, then—
  1. (a) the valuation officer may make a proposal in respect of the premises by reference to the same considerations as would have been applicable if the proposal had been made on the date of the application; and
  2. (b) any alteration in a valuation list made in pursuance of a proposal certified by the valuation officer to have been made by him in consequence of the determination shall have effect as if any notice of the proposal served on the occupier of the premises had been so served at the same time as the notice of the application served on him under subsection (2A) of this section.
 (2C) Any question as to whether, for the purposes of this section, any premises are situated on operational land of an authority to which this section applies shall be determined—
  1. (a) where the authority is the British Railways Board, the London Transport Board or the British Waterways Board, by the Minister of Transport;
  2. (b) in any case, by the Minister of Power.
 (2D) The Minister may by regulations make such provisions as he considers appropriate for securing, in the case of premises liable to be rated under this section and under another enactment and premises of which a part is liable to be rated under this section and another part is liable to be rated under another enactment, that the premises are included in the valuation list as a single hereditament with a single rateable value; and the regulations may make different provision for different circumstances and may contain such supplemental, consequential and incidental provisions, including provisions modifying any enactment, as the Minister considers expedient for the purposes of the regulations.

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment involves a long insertion into the Clause. The difficulty here was that an attempt to restrict the application of the Clause to offices—

Mr. Temple

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are we actually discussing subsection (2D) in this Amendment, or is that being taken separately? I was advised that it was, in fact, to be taken separately. So far as I am concerned, it will be in order if all of the subsections are dealt with together, but I was under the impression that subsections (2A), (2B) and (2C) were to be taken together and that subsection (2D) would be taken separately.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the Amendment by its number, I shall understand what he is referring to. We are taking Amendment No. 15.

Mr. Temple

The whole of Amendment No. 15?

Mr. Speaker

Yes.

Mr. MacColl

I ought to make it clear, because I am in the doghouse anyway, that my difficulty was that I was in trouble with Mr. Speaker for grouping the Amendments without warning. I thought that if the Amendment was separated it would be extremely difficult for Mr. Speaker and that the best course would be to take all the subsections together. That has got me into trouble with the hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) who is always so acute in noticing these little difficulties.

The Clause was introduced to deal with the fact that offices not situated on operational land might lead to rather uncertain results, and we have had great difficulty in finding a way of amending the definition to make it more certain. The area of uncertainty is limited. The typical case, which hon. Members from Croydon in particular have talked about, is that of offices which are situated a long way from the railway. That is not difficulty, because they can be seen. The difficulty comes in the marginal cases which are near the operational area.

The proposal in the Amendment is simply to enable the valuation officer to go to the appropriate Minister to get his advice about it, because it so happens that he is the person who knows best and is accustomed to have to deal with this kind of problem. The first subsection provides that the valuation officer can raise that question with the appropriate Minister. The second provides that the application for a determination is to be treated as the first stage of any subsequent proposal which may be made. The third subsection nominates the appropriate Minister in each case.

The further new subsection concerns a different point and deals with the various cases where one part of the premises is already separately rated under a previous enactment and another part becomes separately rated under this Clause, of which the most obvious example is the case where an electricity or gas board showrooms have already become rateable, and offices which they now have over them become rateable under the Bill. If the building had been in private occupation, it would appear in the valuation list as one hereditament with one value. The intention is to secure a similar result, in this case, for a nationalised industry.

It may be necessary to have regulations. Therefore, provision is taken to give the Minister power to make regulations, although we hope to deal with most of the difficulties without delegated legislation. I cannot give any guarantee about whether it will be necessary—we hope not—but the precaution is taken to enable it to be done by regulation if necessary.

Sir D. Glover

If this is the right moment to raise the question of these Amendments being a matter of Privilege, I should like to address a few words to the House. I have no objection, and I am certain that nobody on this side has any objection, to accepting these Amendments from another place as though they are privileged Amendments, but I have read recently in the Press of the Lord Chancellor making various statements about what another place should do about this sort of Amendment and appealing to that other place not to take certain action.

What I want to make clear is that the practice of this place in accepting from another place Amendments which are a question of Privilege should be quite impartial. It should not be used simply when it is for the convenience of the Government of the day. If these Amendments are inserted in another place because they are thought right and proper, they should receive the same attention and, I would say, the same acceptance from this House for debate.

I make this statement of view—"protest" would be the wrong word—because shortly we shall probably be receiving similar Amendments to which the Government would object and which, they would say, should not have been inserted in another place. The other place must have a right to submit Amendments which it thinks right and proper to insert in a Bill. We should then consider them in detail when they come here, not merely when they are in conformity with the Government's attitude, but even when they are opposed to it.

Question put and agreed to. [Special entry.]

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to. [Special entry.]

Lords Amendment No. 17: In page 19, line 23, leave out from "undertaking" to "not" in line 24.

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

What I have to say about this Amendment applies also to Amendment No. 18, in line 26, which goes with it. These are really drafting Amendments, and have the highly desirable effect of removing some unnecessary words from the definition.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendment No. 19: In page 19, line 30, leave out from "work" to "clerical" in line 32 and insert "and handling money".

Mr. MacColl

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment again is concerned with definition. The definition of "office purposes" which was originally in the Bill went rather wider than was intended, because there are cases in which, for example, computers and telegraphs may be used in some cases for operational purposes, and in some cases for office purposes. Where they are used for office purposes they will come within this definition, but where they are used for operational purposes they will not.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment No. 20: In page 19, line 37, at end insert: