§ Lords Amendment No. 3: In page 16, line 45, leave out "three" and insert "six".
§ The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Anthony Greenwood)I beg to move, That the house doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
It might be for the convenience of the House, as the Amendments involve the same principle, if I deployed my argument on this and the following Amendments;
§ Amendment No. 6: In page 17, line 21, leave out "three" and insert "six".
§ No. 8: In page 17, line 30, leave out "three" and insert "six".
§ No. 9: In Clause 22, page 17, line 42, leave out "three" and insert "six".
§ No. 10: In Clause 22, page 17, line 43, leave out "six" and insert "twelve".
§ No. 11: In Clause 22, page 17, line 45, leave out "three" and insert "six".
§ Is that acceptable to you, Mr. Speaker?
§ Mr. SpeakerMay I say, for the convenience of the House, that it would help the Chair and the House if the Chair knew of the Amendments it was proposed to take together. If there is no objection, so be it.
§ Mr. GreenwoodI very much apologise, Mr. Speaker, if there was any omission and discourtesy on my part, and I am grateful to you for your Ruling.
The Amendments to which I have referred involve the same issue, and I hope that it will not be necessary to detain 1497 the House long, but this is a point to which we attach a good deal of importance and I shall explain briefly why we do so.
In previous debates both sides have accepted the proposal to rate unoccupied property, and the hon. Member for City of Chester (Mr. Temple) made the very fair point in Committee that the decision as to the length of the free periods was a matter of judgment. I entirely agree with him about that and that is really the issue in question tonight.
When the Bill left this House it provided that half rates could be charged upon empty old properties after three months and upon empty new properties after six months. We included those provisions to discourage the withholding of usable accommodation from occupation. Some of my hon. Friends may feel that we went too far and made the provisions weaker than we should have done if they are to achieve the purpose we had in mind.
The basis upon which we proceeded was to try to strike a balance between two alternatives. We tried to strike a balance between effective action against anti-social behaviour, on the one hand, and harshness to owners, on the other. We believe that in the course of action we commended to the House at that time we struck the right balance. In my submission, the Lords Amendments would tilt the balance the wrong way and seriously weaken the effect of the Bill, and I shall now explain why, after very serious consideration, we have decided to ask the House to disagree with the Lords on this aspect of the Bill.
I ask the House to bear in mind that this is a discretionary power which local authorities may or may not choose to exercise. The Lords proposals would mean that empty old property could be empty for six months before it began to be liable for half rates; in other words, it could be empty for a year at a cost of three months' rates. Empty new property would not be liable for rates until after 12 months, so that it could be empty for 18 months' at a cost of three months' rates.
I believe that the Amendments which the Lords have proposed might deter local authorities from adopting the scheme 1498 because the scheme so amended might well cost more to administer than the revenue it would produce, and their reluctance might well be strengthened by the realisation that the "penalty"—I put that word in inverted commas—for an anti-social owner would be almost derisory. In short, we believe that these Amendments would do great damage to the purposes of the Bill, and I ask the House to reject them.
§ Mr. Oscar Murton (Poole)The right hon. Gentleman feels that, if the Amendments were accepted, local authorities might be reluctant to take up the question of rating unoccupied properties. It should not be forgotten that, once they adopt these powers, local authorities have to undertake them for seven years. This is what makes them reluctant, and I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that acceptance of his argument would be likely to make them more reluctant than acceptance of the Lords Amendments.
§ Sir Douglas Glover (Ormskirk)I regard the Lords Amendments in this case as right. Let us consider the present circumstances of a credit squeeze. In Manchester, for example, there is a lot of new property standing empty which the developers are urgently trying to let. The only reason they cannot let is that the economy, because of the Government's mistaken policies, is not growing, while, at the same time, local government expenses and the demand for increased rate revenue are putting on the City of Manchester a growing burden. There is, therefore, a strong temptation to make use of these discretionary powers.
In these circumstances, as it is the Government's own action which is creating the certainty of buildings remaining empty, does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that there is a good deal to be said for protection of the individual by these Lords Amendments which would lengthen the period?
§ Mr. Arthur Jones (Northants, South)We dealt with this matter at some length in Standing Committee, and we were able to carry a substantial measure of agreement with us in our argument that three months was an unreasonably short period. At that time, the property market was active, and people wishing to sell unoccupied property were able to do so fairly 1499 readily and promptly. But now, particularly in the southern part ofthe country, the estate market is "on the floor".
People just cannot sell their properties. This is a great disadvantage to those who want to move and take another property. The mobility of labour is being hampered by the fact that people are unable to sell their houses, and if we insist that, if a person moves out of a house and after three months will have to bear a rate upon it, this will be an added disincentive to the risk of moving jobs. A man will have to pay rates on his new house and, after a short period, will find himself paying rates on the property he has left as well.
This is a very great disadvantage and is surely against the whole wish of the Government to encourage the mobility of labour so that people, when they are "shaken out"—to use the Prime Minister's phrase—can find work elsewhere. In the context of Government policy as a whole, this is a very unwise period to adopt. We tried to make this point earlier under circumstances far more favourable than those of today. I hope that this is not the final thought of the right hon. Gentleman on this subject.
§ Mr. John M. Temple (City of Chester)I am glad to be following the Minister on the third occasion that this matter has been debated either in this House or in another place. I still hold the view I expressed previously and which the Minister has repeated—that this is a matter of judgment. What we want to achieve is social justice in this matter and the question is, "How shall we achieve that social justice?"
I believe that the period of six months for the older properties is the right period, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there must be a difference as between the new and the older properties. But when one is considering this matter in a mature manner, one must realise that the scheme is optional on local authorities and, therefore, they must be keen to take it up.
What weighed with me in coming to a decision was whether it would be worth while for a local authority to enter into the scheme at all if the half rates are payable only after a period of three months. I would say that, if local 1500 authorities were certain that rates would be levied at a half rate after six months, they would be much more likely to opt for the scheme. What the local authorities would have in mind would be the fact that there is considerable administrative expense in tracing owners.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) said, it is very difficult at present to effect a change of tenancy within a period of three months. The legal formalities, the formalities of getting mortgages fixed up, and even the domestic formality of getting decorations done—all this will probably exceed a period of three months. I suggest that it is unrealistic to think that property is being kept vacant for antisocial reasons unless it has been vacant for a period in excess of six months.
In these circumstances, believing that it will encourage rather than discourage local authorities to opt for a scheme of this nature, I have no hesitation in saying that I come down firmly on the side of six months in the case of older houses and of 12 months in the case of newer properties. Very significantly, an organisation with no axe to grind, the Rating and Valuation Association, has weighed this matter dispassionately and come to the same answer for more or less the same reasons. I believe, therefore, that it is a sensible answer.
It is a matter of judgment. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will have second thoughts, because I think that both of us want this scheme to be put into operation under which the local authorities can get half rates for property that is unoccupied for a long time. Believing that, if this Amendment is disagreed with, such a situation will not come about, I think that it would be much wiser for the Government to accept the Lords Amendment.
I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) wants to speak about this matter, because he feels very strongly about it, and I therefore now resume my seat in the expectation that he will get up.
§ 10.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Rippon (Hexham)I was amazed that the Minister should have expressed the view that local 1501 authorities would be encouraged to opt for this scheme if the period were the shorter rather than the longer. I shall be interested to know whether he has had any advice on this matter from local authority associations. Undoubtedly the Rating and Valuation Association has reached a different view. It points out that it is within the discretion of a local authority to use these permissive powers, but that, once it has exercised the option, its resolution remains in force for seven years. It is felt that with the shorter period the cost of inspection and administration would be greater rather than less.
In all the circumstances, I would have thought that the Minister would have gladly accepted the Amendment, which is not of enormous substance. One would imagine that on a matter of this kind the Government would listen to the advice of those who in these matters have rather more practical experience than the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry.
§ Mr. MacCollAs the hon. Member for City of Chester (Mr. Temple) said, and as his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) repeated, this is an option, and, therefore, when a local authority introduces it is a matter of judgment. It is unlikely that a local authority would choose to intro-
§ duce the scheme at a time when there was property stagnation, and therefore one can reasonably expect that local authorities will regard the scheme as useful particularly at a time when there is a shortage of property and it is desired to make property move more quickly from one person to another.
§ It is true that they would take a seven-year vow, but my right hon. Friend has power if he thinks fit to accept a proposal to change that, and a startling alteration in the property situation would be a ground for such a change. The short point is that if it is to be worth doing at all, it is necessary to avoid too much evasion and if the property could not be touched for six months, evasion would be encouraged and people would be encouraged to leave their property empty for the maximum time.
§ I think that this provision would encourage the mobility of labour, because anything which discourages people from leaving their property empty means that they will move more quickly and dispose of it more quickly and, on the whole, I think that this provision will facilitate change rather than cause a lag.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 184, Noes 101.
1503| Division No. 223.] | AYES | [10.20 p.m. |
| Alldritt, Walter | Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Gregory, Arnold |
| Allen, Scholefield | Davies, Robert (Cambridge) | Grey, Charles (Durham) |
| Archer, Peter | de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Delargy, Hugh | Hale, Leslie (Oldham, w.) |
| Ashley, Jack | Dell, Edmund | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Dempsey, James | Hannan, William |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Dewar, Donald | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Barnes, Michael | Dobson, Ray | Haseldine, Norman |
| Baxter, William | Doig, Peter | Hattersley, Roy |
| Beaney, Alan | Driberg, Tom | Hazell, Bert |
| Bence, Cyril | Dunn, James A. | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Bishop, E. S. | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Henig, Stanley |
| Blackburn, F. | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Hooley, Frank |
| Boardman, H. | Eadle, Alex | Horner, John |
| Booth, Albert | Edwards, Rt. Hn. Ness (Caerphilly) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Ellis, John | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) |
| Bradley, Tom | English, Michael | Howie, W. |
| Brooks, Edwin | Ennals, David | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Faulds, Andrew | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Fernyhough, E. | Hunter, Adam |
| Cant, R. B. | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Hynd, John |
| Carmichael, Neil | Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.) | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) |
| Coe, Denis | Forrester, John | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Concannon, J. D. | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hulf, W.) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Galpern, Sir Myer | Jones, Dan (Bumley) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Garrett, W. E. | Jones, Rt.Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) |
| Cullen, Mis. Alice | Garrow, Alex | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) |
| Dalyell, Tarn | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Judd, Frank |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Gourlay, Harry | Kelley, Richard |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Davies, C Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Lawson, George |
| Leadbitter, Ted | O'Malley, Brian | Swingler, Stephen |
| Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Orbach, Maurice | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Orme, Stanley | Thornton, Ernest |
| Lomas, Kenneth | Oswald, Thomas | Tinn, James |
| Loughlin, Charles | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Paget, R. T. | Varley, Eric G. |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Palmer, Arthur | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| McCann, John | Park, Trevor | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| MacColl, James | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Wallace, George |
| Macdonald, A. H. | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| McGuire, Michael | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor (Ruthergten) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Maclennan, Robert | Price, William (Rugby) | Whitlock, William |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Probert, Arthur | Wilkins, W. A. |
| McNamara, J. Kevin | Redhead, Edward | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Richard, Ivor | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Manuel, Archie | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Mapp, Charles | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Marsh, Rt. Hn, Richard | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Mendelson, J. J. | Roebuck, Roy | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Millan, Bruce | Rose, Paul | Woodbum, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Woof, Robert |
| Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) | Yates, Victor |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Sheldon, Robert | |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES |
| Newens, Stan | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | Mr. Neil McBride and |
| Oakes, Gordon | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Mr. Ioan L. Evans. |
| Ogden, Eric | Spriggs, Leslie | |
| NOES | ||
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Astor, John | Hawkins, Paul | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Batsfotd, Brian | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Heseltine, Michael | Peel, John |
| Bessell, Peter | Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Biffen, John | Holland, Philip | Pym, Francis |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hooson, Emlyn | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Blaker, Peter | Hunt, John | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Brewis, John | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Sharples, Richard |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Jopling, Michael | Smith, John |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Kimball, Marcus | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Burden, F, A. | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Stodart, Anthony |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Kirk, Peter | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Clark, Henry | Kitson, Timothy | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Cooke, Robert | Lambton, Viscount | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Temple, John M. |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Lubbock, Eric | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | MacArthur, Ian | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Elliott, R.W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty) | Wall, Patrick |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Maginnis, John E. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Fair, John | Maude, Angus | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Forrest, George | Miscampbell, Norman | Whitelaw, William |
| Fortescue, Tim | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Foster, Sir John | Monro, Hector | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Giles, Rear. Adm. Morgan | More, Jasper | Winetanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Wylie, N. R. |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Younger, Hn. George |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Murton, Oscar | |
| Gurden, Harold | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hall-Davis, A. C. F. | Neave, Airey | Mr. Anthony Grant and |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.