§ Mr. HareI beg to move, in page 4, line 32, to leave out "60" and to insert: "16 degrees Centigrade (which is equivalent to 60/".
The purpose of the Amendment is self evident. Centigrade replaces Fahrenheit as a primary standard and the minimum temperature for rooms—in which severe physical effort is not involved—is raised to 60.8 degrees Fahrenheit after the first hour of work. I realise that this does not go as far as some hon. Members opposite wished when we discussed this in Committee. However, since we discussed this matter in some detail in Committee I will not detain the House by adducing the arguments at great length.
We are not laying down 16 degrees centigrade or 60.8 degree Fahrenheit as a desirable temperature but what is really a legal minimum; and employers generally will aim above this if only to ensure that they do not break the law. Indeed, the weather we have been having in recent months is a good test of this minimum temperature to be allowed by law in any room. To ensure that all rooms in their premises achieve the statutory minimum—and this includes the coldest room in the building—most rooms will obviously have to be heated to higher standards. I believe, therefore, that the Bill as amended will achieve the object we have in mind, of providing 514 comfortably warm conditions in which to work.
§ Mr. PrenticeIn Committee, when we were sitting in a room heated to a temperature of 72 degrees Fahrenheit my hon. Friends and I tried to improve on the figure of 60 degrees Fahrenheit then in the Bill.
§ Mr. PrenticeThe hon. Member may consider that in that part of the room in which he was sitting it was 60 degrees, but, by my thermometer, the room was at a temperature of 72 degrees. That was more than the figure we wanted to insert in the Bill and, as we can see, more than the Minister's figure. However, we welcome the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, partly because we take a modern view of temperatures.
We also welcome the fact, as good internationalists, that he is thinking in terms of centigrade and that there is .8 of a degree Fahrenheit improvement. We should have liked the right hon. Gentleman to have gone further, but, though a modest improvement, it is welcomed, and we share his hopes that employers will aim somewhat higher because temperatures as low as this will be uncomfortable for sedentary workers.
Mr. FanWhen moving the Amendment my right hon. Friend said that centigrade was in the process of replacing the Fahrenheit scale. I should be grateful if he would advise me as to 515 who came to that decision because, as far as I am aware, the question of the value of the centigrade scale as opposed to the Fahrenheit scale has never come before the House. This question is in the minds of many hon. Members, some of whom have marked views on the subject. Those concerned with agriculture, and commerce generally, consider that the dual scale to which we are subjected daily on television and in official announcements is causing a great deal of confusion.
I suggest that the Fahrenheit scale has done us well enough since it was invented by Fahrenheit around 1736. I suggest further that one of the possible reasons why the Fahrenheit scale was originally duplicated by the centigrade scale in official announcements, namely, the possibility of our going into the Common Market, is now no longer a relative factor to be considered. I ask my right hon. Friend to withdraw the Amendment and to put intc the Bill something which everybody in the country understands, without making life more complicated than it is already, and to put in 60 degrees or 61 degrees Fahrenheit and have done with it.
§ Mr. BenceI know how ready the the Minister is to answer any question raised in the Chamber. I spent some time on the Committee stage of the Weights and Measures Bill and I found that when temperatures were mentioned in that Bill the word "Celsius" was used. I understand that he was a Swedish or Norwegian expert on thermometers and that this is an international scale which, instead of working from 0 degrees to 100 degrees works from 100 degrees to 0 degrees. Why cannot we use Celsius in this Measure just as in the other Bill so that at least the House of Commons will be using standard measurements throughout its legislation?
If we are to have Celsius in weights and measures, why not in shops, offices and railway premises where there will be weights and measures the standards of which will be determined by referring them to temperatures in terms or Celsius? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will realise that, as it is, 516 we shall be measuring weights and measures in terms of the Celsius scale but using the centigrade scale in offices. I should like to have some information on the subject because when I speak to my constituents I like to think that I know what I am talking about, and in this case I am not sure.
§ Mr. Denys Bullard (King's Lynn)I should like to support my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr). I hope that I am not a backwoodsman in this matter. I certainly agree with the desirability of using international scales whenever posible, but there is a vast difference betwen the scientific use of these scales and their use in ordinary language, which is the purpose behind providing a scale in the Bill. I have long held that the centigrade scale has enormous advantages in scientific use. It is a much more rational scale than the Fahrenheit, which is not rational at all with its freezing point at 32 degrees. But from the point of view of common usage the Fahrenheit scale has great advantages.
§ Mr. BullardIt may be, but the advantages are that the Fahrenheit scale covers the normal range of temperatures which people experience in their ordinary life on their bodies. If the temperature is 0 degrees F. it is jolly cold, and if it is 100 degrees F. it is very hot indeed. Therefore, the range covered, with its average round about 50 degrees, provides a convenient variation of temperature in a scale in common use.
§ Mr. BenceThe hon. Gentleman has described conditions under Fahrenheit and centigrade. He seems to be well informed. Could he say what the conditions are under Celsius?
§ Mr. BullardI am not so well up in the Celsius scale as I am in the other two. Therefore, I am afraid I cannot help the hon. Gentleman.
I should like to know what is the origin of this change. Who is putting on the pressure for this change? My right hon. Friend said that this is recognised as a primary scale, but by whom is it so recognised? We have been dealing with the Weights and Measures Bill which goes to great trouble to define various units of measurement, and the Bill sets up, amongst other things, a 517 Commission of Units and Standards of Measurement. I should like to know whether those bodies which are concerned with changes in units of weight and volume have given any consideration to what is a useful temperature scale.
I am not at all averse to the wider adoption of the centigrade scale in its proper sphere, but I do not ask my grocer to measure my butter in grammes or to adopt any of the units in scientific use. I should have thought it was much better in our legislation to adhere to a scale which, though it is not a British scale, has the advantages which I have already mentioned, namely, that it covers in a convenient way temperatures between 0 and 100 degrees, the range of temperatures which people experience in their every day lives.
I hope my right hon. Friend is not going to be driven too far. I have already raised this matter on the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, where we are not making any change. We are using the Fahrenheit scale of temperatures. If there is to be any general move towards the centigrade scale there should be co-operation between all Government Departments so that we follow a uniform practice. I think the present practice leads to confusion rather than to clarity, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider the matter.
§ Mr. J. HyndI would only remind the hon. Members for Harborough (Mr. Farr) and for King's Lynn (Mr. Bullard) that Fahrenheit emanated from a German source, whereas centigrade and Celsius emanated from an E.F.T.A. source; and, since we are not in the Common Market, we can congratulate ourselves on the fact that the Common Market has adopted an E.F.T.A. scale.
I differ from the hon. Member for King's Lynn who said that one reason for adopting the Fahrenheit scale is that it is in general use. But it is only in general use in a restricted sphere, whereas the centigrade scale is universal. I think it is time that we were practical in these matters. I support the Amendment and, thanks to the fact that we are now getting the centigrade scale adopted, we have at least got .8 plus in the minimum reading for offices, shops and railway premises.
§ Mr. HareI am glad the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) and 518 I welcome this Amendment. Indeed, several other Members do so as well. I was sorry to hear the views expressed by my hon. Friends the Members for Harborough (Mr. Farr) and for King's Lynn (Mr. Bullard). The switch from Fahrenheit to centigrade is being made by the Meteorological Office as part of international practice, and, as hon. Members have said, this is reasonable international practice. It is not the result of a statutory change. We were pressed on both sides of the Committee to consider this, and that is why I brought the matter forward.
In reply to the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence), Celsius and centigrade are one and the same thing. If I am wrong, I will try to deal with the point at a later stage.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. HareI beg to move, in page 5, line 7, after "floor", to insert:
on which there is a room to which subsection (1) of this section applies".Perhaps, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, we could discuss also the consequential Amendment in page 5, line 10, after "any" to insert "such".
§ Mr. HareClause 6 (4) requires a thermometer to be placed in a conspicuous place on each floor and that it shall be kept available fox use by employees who wish to take the temperature in any room on that floor. If there are no rooms on a particular floor in which, normally, persons work—for example, if one floor is devoted to records or stock—there is no point in requiring a thermometer to be kept there. That is the simple reason for these two Amendments.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: In page 5, line IO, after "any", insert "such".[Mr. Hare.]