HC Deb 15 November 1962 vol 667 cc549-52
16. Mr. Dance

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many betting shops have been licensed in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Brooke

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on 8th November to a Question by the hon. Members for Dagenham (Mr. Parker).

Mr. Dance

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that since that date many more betting shops have been opened? Is he aware that people connected with the furthering of racing, and including many prominent bookmakers, sincerely feel that magistrates have been far too lenient in the granting of these licences, of which there are too many? Is he further aware that since these betting shops have been opened, attendances at racecourses have dropped considerably? Would he consider the suggestion that betting shops should not be allowed to be open during the hours of racing?

Mr. Brooke

I will take account of everything my hon. Friend has said, but there is a later Question on the Order Paper by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen), Question No. 23, and I should find difficulty in answering that supplementary question without anticipating the Answer which I hope I shall have a chance to give to the hon. Member for Leyton.

Mr. G. Thomas

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while the Betting and Gaming Act has opened the door to all sorts of enterprises in gambling, there is a very uneven distribution of these betting shops, as in some areas magistrates are much too free about allowing the multiplication of betting shops? Will he draw the attention of magistrates to our concern about what is happening?

Mr. Brooke

One thing I must not do is draw the attention of magistrates to any matters. In general, the answer to the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) must be on the same lines as the answer to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance).

Mr. J. T. Price

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was a member of the Standing Committee which considered the Betting and Gaming Bill and that during its many sittings I repeatedly warned the Minister and his colleagues and everybody else in the Committee that that legislation would have two inevitable results: it would lead to a great increase in gambling by women during shopping expeditions and, secondly, to continuous betting, that is, waiting from one race to the next, collecting the winnings on the first and putting them on the second? Is he also aware that I was assured that my fears were unfounded in both cases, but that in the event, unfortunately, they have been completely realised in practice? Is he aware that this is the great social evil and that some restrictions ought to be reimposed.

Mr. Brooke

I have no personal information about what women do when they go out shopping. I have read the proceedings in the Standing Committee on the Bill a couple of years ago. I am inclined to the view that it is too early to reach final conclusions on what will be the eventual outcome of the new provisions of the law.

23. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent prosecutions for illegal street betting have diminished since the legalisation of betting shops; and if, either by granting fuller powers to local authorities or by taking other steps, he will prevent an excessive number of betting shops being opened, particularly when this adversely affects availability of domestic accommodation or the usage of shops for other purposes.

Mr. Brooke

In the first seven months of this year there were only seven prosecutions for illegal street betting in the Metropolitan Police District, and my understanding is that illegal street betting has virtually ceased in other parts of the country also. The local licensing authorities responsible for the grant or renewal of betting office licences, which in England and Wales are committees of the justices, have power to refuse an application on the ground that the grant or renewal of a licence would be inexpedient having regard to the demand in the locality and the number of betting offices available to meet it. The local authority must be informed of the application, and has a right to lodge an objection. Furthermore, the permission of the planning authority must be obtained before a dwelling house or a retail shop can be converted into a betting office. I have no further legislative proposals at present in mind.

Mr. Sorensen

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he appreciates that the arrangements to control betting seem to have broken down in view of the fact that in many areas there are obviously far more betting shops than were anticipated, or are needed? In these circumstances, will he reflect again on this very serious question?

Mr. Brooke

This is a matter for the licensing authorities into whose hands it was put by Parliament. I have seen reports in the Press that there are 20,000 betting offices in existence now. I have no reason to believe that it is anything like that number.

Mr. Fletcher

Is not the Home Secretary aware that a very much larger number of betting offices have been opened than was contemplated when the Bill was passed, and that the general opinion is that the volume of betting has increased very considerably? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when he will be able to let us have some reliable statistics about this matter?

Mr. Brooke

The report for the second licensing period will be laid before Parliament in, I should say, a few weeks, but complete control over the number of betting office licences granted is in the hands of the licensing authorities, and by way of appeal from them in England and Wales, in the hands of quarter sessions, and I should have thought that both these courts took every point into consideration, particularly whether there were too many betting offices growing up in a particular area, before reaching a decision. I really do not believe that this could be settled centrally.