HC Deb 23 March 1944 vol 398 cc1205-8
Mr. Silkin

I beg to move, in page 49, line 8, to leave out, "or any class of independent schools."

The Deputy-Chairman

I think that in discussing this Amendment, we can also discuss the next four Amendments on the Order Paper.

Mr. Silkin

This Clause provides for the registration of independent schools, and Sub-section (2) states that if the Minister is satisfied that he has sufficient information in his possession, he may dispense with the requirement that any independent school, or any class of independent schools, should register and he may thereby exempt them and deem them to be registered. My Amendment leaves out the words, "any class of independent schools." I can understand the Minister saying that he has sufficient information about a particular school and that there is no need for it to register; that it should be exempt, and that he will put it on the register. But I cannot understand him saying this about any class of independent schools, nor do I understand what those words mean.

Mr. Ede

This Clause covers the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Private Schools, and their proposal, in which they dealt in detail with the point raised by my hon. Friend, will indicate exactly what we have in mind in dealing with a class of independent schools. Paragraph 173 of their Report says: There should be the following exemptions from registration requirements and compulsory inspection of schools, the schools exempted being deemed to be registered schools: (a) any school in respect of which the Board of Education are satisfied that adequate information is available without inspection and that the requirements of the Statute and Regulations are fulfilled might be exempted by the Board at their discretion; (b) all schools recognised by the Board of Education as efficient secondary schools should be exempt. There is a class of school, known as efficient secondary or preparatory schools. They are independent schools for the purpose of this Bill, which have been inspected by us, which we can inspect from time to time, and about which we have the fullest possible information. It would clearly be inappropriate if they were brought into the general requirements of registration in the way proposed in the Clause. Therefore, inasmuch as we know all about them, and are able to apply at once the required standards, it would be unnecessary to have them inspected a second time merely formally in order that they should be included in the registration. I hope that that explanation will satisfy my hon. Friend. Only those schools, or class of schools about which we have information, and which we can inspect, will be exempt.

Mr. Silkin

Will my hon. Friend explain what he means by classes of schools? He has applied himself to individual schools and I agree with him, but what are classes of schools?

Mr. Ede

If my hon. Friend wilt refer to paragraph 173 (b) of the Report he will see All schools recognised by the Board of Education as efficient secondary schools. That is a well-known class of school. There are certain preparatory schools which, similarly, have been inspected, and about which we have the fullest information on all these matters. That is the kind of class that we intend to exempt under the provisions of the Clause.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I find myself at a complete loss to understand my hon. Friend. The whole of his answer is directed to justifying the exemption of schools as to which the Board of Education are satisfied. They say it does not mean schools in the lump. It means that they are satisfied as to A, B, C, D, and so on. If the Board is satisfied, there is no quarrel. They are already covered. The Sub-section is quite clear. If the Minister is satisfied that he is in possession of sufficient information with respect to any independent school, he can exempt it from registration. But everything the Parliamentary Secretary has said has been directed to proving that he has sufficient information to satisfy himself as to a school. What I cannot understand is why he will insist on the inclusion of the following words—"or any class of independent school." That means that you are going to take a group of them, something that exists under a public schools trust, or some category of school. That is the only meaning that can be given to it. Everything that the hon. Gentleman has said, is directed towards justifying the exclusion of particular schools. These words "any class of independent school" are, on the basis of the argument that he has put forward, completely otiose. They are not wanted. They have no meaning. I cannot understand why he does not accept the Amendment. It makes one wonder whether there is, behind these unnecessary words, some hidden meaning. Everything is provided in the words that go before, and then you get the addition of these words which are unwanted, yet my hon. Friend insists on keeping them in. I wonder why?

Mr. Ede

I regret that my hon. and learned Friend should have suspicions about me being influenced by some hidden hand. There is really nothing in it at all, except that, surely, it is a great administrative convenience to the schools themselves, instead of being compelled to have a list in the early stages in which every one is included individually by name, to say that all recognised efficient secondary schools will be regarded as coming within the words of this Clause. There is, surely, nothing hidden about that.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I quite accept that. Will not my hon. Friend take this back and reconsider it to see that the type that he has in mind is all that can be comprehended within the terms of the Clause, that is to say, the kind of schools the hon. Gentleman has now mentioned which have been inspected and approved and are the only schools that can come in as a class?

Mr. Ede

We now understand that there is nothing hidden behind this, and that this is not a way of exempting some public schools from having to register, but purely a matter of administrative machinery. We will, of course, examine the matter to see if it is possible to get words that will more closely define the type of school that we have in mind under this provision. Here, again, I hope hon. Members will realise that this is an innovation in the law. We desire to bring it into effect as soon as possible. There are a large number of independent schools which are urgently in need of inspection, and we desire to limit the scope of our first inspection so that we shall be able to deal with those which most urgently call for it. If it is understood that we are now merely dealing with the question of machinery and that there is no suggestion that this is an effort to let unworthy people through, I am prepared to consider the matter between now and the further stages of the Bill.

Mr. Silkin

I understand that the hon. Gentleman is undertaking to make a closer definition of "classes of school."

Mr. Ede

I may even be able to accept the hon. Gentleman's Amendment on mature thought.

Mr. Silkin

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will when he has time to think about it. On that understanding, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.