CLAUSE 64.—(Determination of disputes and questions.) (Hansard, 23 March 1944)

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 47, line 35, to leave out from "Act," to end of Sub-section, and to insert: may, notwithstanding any enactment rendering the exercise of the power or the performance of the duty contingent upon the opinion of the authority or of the managers or governors, be referred to the Minister; and any such dispute so referred shall be determined by him. This relates to an undertaking I gave earlier in the Bill. In certain places in the 1202 Bill various provisions have given a power or powers imposing a duty which is consequent on some body of persons forming an opinion, and this is particularly the case in some earlier Clauses. The advantage is that the Government has inserted this provision in order that the propriety of the action of some particular body of managers or governors based on an opinion can come within the discretion of the Minister.

§ Mr. Stokes
We are grateful to the Minister for having fulfilled the promise he gave earlier in the Bill. I understand that this covers the difficulties under Clause 23, and we are very much obliged.

§ Sir P. Hannon
I beg to move, in page 47, line 36, at the end, to insert: Provided that when the foundation Managers or governors of any controlled school raise an objection with respect to the exercise by the local education authority of any power conferred or the performance of any duty imposed by or under this Act, the matter shall be determined by the Minister. As my right hon. Friend the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham and Worthing (Earl Winterton) is not here, I beg to move this Amendment in his name. We aim to embody in this Bill some provision to operate in the case of a difference of opinion between a controlled school and the local education authority. I understand my right hon. Friend proposes to embody in subsequent stages of the Bill the objective in this Amendment, so I will content myself by simply moving the Amendment. I submit to my right hon. Friend that it is important in this Bill, that covers so wide a field in the sphere of education in this country, that we should as far as possible, in the event of a dispute arising, secure an adjustment of differences. In all these particular cases where the trouble arises between the governors and managers of an auxiliary school and the education authority there should be a right of appeal to the Minister of Education and that should be embodied in this Bill. I am sure it is the desire of the Committee that nothing should appear in this Bill that will not make smooth and easy the objective in the Bill. I understand the Minister will meet the objection that may arise from a dispute between the local authority and the governors or managers of an auxiliary school in later stages of the Bill.

§ Mr. Butler
I am sure my hon. Friend will not desire to press the Amendment if he will look at the Amendment on the Order Paper on page 782 dealing with Clause 103.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Does the hon. Member wish to withdraw the Amendment?

§ Sir P. Hannon
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Stokes
I beg to move, in page 48, line 6, at the end, to add: (5) Provided that, if so requested by the managers or governors of an auxiliary school, being a party to any dispute or question under Sub-section (1) or Sub-section (4) of this Section, the Minister shall, before determining that dispute or question, cause a local inquiry to be held in accordance with Section eighty-six of this Act. The Clause provides for the determination by the Minister of a dispute between the local education authority and managers or governors of a school, or a dispute between the local education authorities. On questions where the alteration of premises of a county or auxiliary school would amount to the establishment of a new school, we submit that, from the point of view of the managers or governors of that school, the termination of any dispute between them and the educational authority, and any question of whether the alterations do or do not constitute the provision of a new school, is of such fundamental importance that it would be quite equitable for the governors or managers to have an inquiry if they were dissatisfied with the Minister's decision. It might be suggested that this is a one-sided proposal, and obviously if the Minister would agree that a local inquiry should be asked for on that account, it ought to be within the rights of the Minister, or the local education authority, to ask for an inquiry in the other direction. It is of the greatest importance to the governors of school's that the matter should be determined equitably. They feel that the question may be very ambiguous, and they seek the right, under Clause 86 perhaps, to ask for a local inquiry if they differ from the Minister's decision.

§ Sir P. Hannon
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that Clause 86 is sufficiently comprehensive to enable him to carry out these inquiries to the fullest 1204 extent which would be essential in the case of a dispute arising? Is Clause 86 as full as he would like to have it, if he were to administer it?

§ Mr. Butler
I can perhaps relieve the Committee by saying that we do not wish to get as far as Clause 86 to-day, so we shall certainly be able to look at that in detail. However, I am advised, and I am sure myself, that Clause 86 includes quite sufficient power for the Minister to have a local inquiry for matters in dispute, but I hope that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) will not press his Amendment, because I think it is of the essence of this matter that the Minister should reserve discretion, and that there should not be a prescriptive right given to the managers or governors of an auxiliary school to have a local inquiry. We prefer to leave the matter to the Minister to decide, on the basis of submission of the case to him. The Minister, otherwise, would tend to be rather weighted in favour of one side or the other. We, of course, always make inquiries as to the likely reception of these Amendments in certain quarters, and I can assure the hon. Member that he would be wiser not to press this one. By leaving the Bill as it stands, he still gets the discretion of the Minister to set on foot the machinery of the inquiry, and it would obviously be in the interests of the Minister to set on foot that inquiry if he were in doubt. On the other hand, if the hon. Member insists on this being put in, it may give encouragement to certain other people who have not quite the same views as he, and some of the auxiliary schools have, and therefore he 'would not be improving his case by making this particular insertion in the Bill. Therefore, if he would like to leave it to the discretion of the Minister and not insist on an Amendment—

§ Mr. Stokes
I would, of course, be quite satisfied if the Minister promised to be the Minister "for ever and ever, Amen."

§ Mr. Messer
He may promise, but can he keep it?

§ Mr. Stokes
No, he cannot, and this is important. However, I do not want to overstress my case. I stated our difficulty, and I hope the Minister will consider our problem and see if he can find any way to help us later. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Sir P. Hannon
I am sorry to intervene again. I am only going to ask my right hon. Friend whether Section 290 of the Local Government Act, referred to in Clause 86, limits him in any way in determining anything under this Clause?

§ Mr. Butler
When we examine Clause 86 we can give a full answer on that, but I am advised that Clause 86 as drafted would cover the sort of disputes which the hon. Gentleman has in mind.