HC Deb 23 March 1944 vol 398 cc1208-14
Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I beg to move, in page 50 line 4, at the end, to insert: (e) that the conditions of employment of the teachers are not satisfactory. This Amendment deals with the conditions of employment of teachers in the independent schools. Anybody who has had experience of these schools will think of them in terms of schools which provide conditions of employment and effective teaching for the pupils that compare very favourably with those provided in council and county schools, but we cannot help but think of some independent schools which are a form of property. They are bought and sold and are regarded as an investment. They can attract pupils to them because they provide certain amenities at great expense which cannot be found in other schools or in schools provided out of public funds. An institution like that, which is run for profit, must keep down costs where it can. There are plenty of those that rely for their teaching staff on those who have fallen by the way in State education and perhaps in public schools, and who have been caught up and employed by independent schools. The proprietors have the advantage of knowing that they cannot seek employment elsewhere.

They keep down the pay and conditions. As the teachers grow older, the pay and conditions get worse and worse. I cannot imagine that any teaching in such an institution, and at the hands of those who are compelled to submit to those conditions of employment, can be the best for the children who are there. If I had my way I would abolish them altogether.

Obviously, however, we are accepting them as a part of the education system of this country, and it is our duty to see that those who are foolish enough to send their children to those schools are provided with some kind of minimum safeguard. There are some safeguards and protection in that respect, but there is no safeguard at all for the standard of remuneration given to the teachers. If there were a standard of remuneration corresponding to the standard given in our county schools—in the sense in which this term is used in the Bill—there would be some guarantee that competent instruction would be given. I cannot understand why the Bill provides for standards of school premises, accommodation and instruction and cannot go further and secure standards of remuneration and conditions of employment for the teachers in these private schools, and that these matters should be the subject of inspection and investigation, something as to which the Board ought to be satisfied before approving a school.

Mr. Lindsay

I rise to say something which ought to be said at this moment. It does not fall to many of us to preside over a Departmental Committee and then to take part in the Debates on a Bill which puts the recommendations of that Committee into legislation. It must be a very peculiar sense of satisfaction to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. He did a very fine job on this work many years ago. Answering Questions in those days, I had, on at least five occasions, when it was asked when a Bill would be brought forward embodying the recommendation, to reply that the Government did not think it was quite the right moment to bring in comprehensive legislation on the matter. I congratulate him.

Do not let us run away with the idea that there are not going to be more independent schools. Their number is growing at the present moment. I hope the conditions in them are going to be looked into very carefully. Let us also remember that Bedales and many other famous schools would never have passed the test of this Bill in their early stages. I happened to come across a school rather like that the other day, where, apparently, the Board would not give recognition because the school had not a headmaster. There are ways of running a school without a headmaster. Lots of interesting things are being tried in the education world today. Nevertheless, we must see that the pay and conditions of the teachers are properly looked after.

Mr. Harvey

I would not have spoken had it not been for one sentence from the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. M. Hughes). I agree that the conditions of private schools should be subject to inspection by the Board and should be carefully kept under review, but it would be absolutely deplorable to education if independent schools were swept away altogether. They have been, in the past, the method by means of which new ideas have come into the education world, and in the provinces there are quite a number of remarkable cases in which pioneer work is being done in comparatively small independent schools. However good our national system may be, and I hope that it will be better and better as the years go on, it may still be enriched from time to time by new ideas and experiments that come into being in the first instance in the freedom of the independent schools. I hope, therefore, whatever happens, that we shall preserve this opportunity for free expression, under suitable conditions. We must safeguard the human rights of the staff, and of course the welfare of the children, but all that is possible while maintaining the liberty of experiments which these schools supply.

Mr. Ede

I should like, if I may, to thank the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) for the very kind personal words he used about me. It is a matter of some satisfaction to me that even if my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes) finds my words in commending these Clauses to the Committee beyond his understanding, at any rate I have been able to play my part in bringing this matter on to the Statute Book, because the revelations laid before my Committee were such as to convince us that a substantial number of children in this country are being most shamefully ill-treated in the matter of education in the worst of these independent schools. Other independent schools are among the best M the country. I do not, however, share the belief that some people hold that all valuable experiments have originated in those schools, because in the main, to carry on an experiment, considerable sums of money are required. That money has generally been found by the State, or the local authority, for the big experiments that have enriched us in the past. Some experiments have been carried on in these schools.

If I may direct my attention to the Amendment moved by my hon. and learned Friend, the curious thing about the Departmental Committee was, that while we heard evidence, including evidence from teachers in these schools, we had no evidence from any one that conditions were bad. Each of us knew through his own personal experience that there are schools in which some of the conditions for the staff are very bad indeed. I do not think that we can be expected in this Bill to undertake the responsibility of saying what is an adequate salary to be paid to a person in one of these schools. We take on trouble enough when we endeavour to enforce the Burnham Committee's scales on local education authorities. To attempt to enforce some scales on private schools, where one would always be faced with the difficulty of bringing in the value of payment in kind in certain circumstances as part salary, would be to put on us a burden which we could not carry. If the conditions are such as to reduce the efficiency of this school as a place of instruction, that, of course, is one of the things that we shall have to take notice of.

Under paragraph (c) of Sub-section (1) we have to ensure that efficient and suitable instruction is being provided. Where the conditions are such that they bring the education of the school, as my hon. and learned Friend quite rightly suggested they do on occasions, below an efficient level, we shall be able to take action under that provision. Therefore, while at the moment I cannot accept the Amendment, I want to assure my hon. and learned Friend that I am concerned about some of the conditions, apart from salaries, which exist in some of these schools, and I will endeavour to find, if possible, some way in which that position can be met in the Bill. I cannot undertake to put in anything with regard to salaries, but where hours of duty and conditions under which duty is rendered, lower the efficiency of the school, I will endeavour to see if some words can be introduced to cover those particular conditions in the school.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I am not altogether satisfied with the Parliamentary Secretary's answer, but I am glad that he has gone some way to meet the situation. I must reply to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for the English Universities (Mr. E. Harvey). He seemed to suggest that, because I wanted to abolish independent schools, I wanted to abolish experiment. Certainly not. As he knows, even better than I know, these experimental schools are only for those who have the money to send their children to them. I want to register my conviction that the field of experiment in education is open to local authorities and open to the State. That is the best possible solution that could be found, and it should be encouraged in both those directions. With that protest and that qualified acceptance of the Parliamentary Secretary's answer, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

This Clause provides that one of the matters on which the Minister must be satisfied is that the accommodation provided at the school is adequate and suitable. Many of these independent schools are residential. I should hazard the opinion that most are of the preparatory type, and that the main desideratum for a school of this kind is that it should be residential, because parents imagine that, since they are sending a child to a residential, instead of a local day school, the child will get a better education. It is upon that rock that most of these schools found themselves. If parents are foolish enough to do so, and if we are authorising the Minister to inspect the accommodation of these schools, ought we not to carry it a stage further and make sure that the investigation shall also cover the boarding accommodation and the feeding that are provided? This Clause, as it stands, might well be interpreted as applying only to the accommodation provided for the children's education and whether the classrooms are all right. It might well be limited to the instructional end of the school. If the school is a residential one, the Clause should go further and deal with the whole of the accommodation. I ask for some assurance that the investigation will include the whole lay-out of the life of the school, not only just in the classroom, but the condition of his life in the building where he is.

Mr. Ede

There is no doubt, as far as boarding accommodation at the school is concerned, that it comes within the wording of the Clause, and my hon. Friend will recollect that we have taken powers in this Bill for the establishment by local authorities of boarding schools out of public funds, and for prescribing building regulations by the Board. These will obviously have to cover the standards to be set for the boarding part of the ordinary county and auxiliary schools. Therefore, there appears to be no doubt that in future, accommodation, even in the State system, will cover the question of boarding accommodation as well as the ordinary day school accommodation.

With regard to meals, I do not think that these words cover the position. The evidence, curiously enough, that was given to us was that some of the schools that were worst, from the educational point of view, were the best, from the feeding point of view. Apparently, it was thought that if you only fed the young animal enough, you would probably send him to sleep for same part of the afternoon and your education need not be too efficient. But there have been cases, undoubtedly, where proprietors of schools have been prosecuted by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children for giving children in these schools insufficient food. It was, in fact, a case which attracted considerable notoriety in 1930, which led to the appointment of the Departmental Committee. I am not clear that meals are covered. It is obviously only right that, in view of the effort we are making under Clause 47 to ensure proper feeding of the children in the State schools, we should see that these children also get the benefit of proper feeding. If it should be necessary to add words to ensure that the feeding arrangements in these schools come within the things that can be inspected, and if there is a deficiency found which calls for remedy, I will endeavour to include suitable words.

Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clauses 68 to 71 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered: That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Mr. Drewe.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.