HC Deb 23 March 1944 vol 398 cc1199-201
Mr. Silkin

I beg to move, in page 47, line 23, to leave out from "shall" to "be," in line 24.

I wish to move this Amendment in my name, and the two other Amendments which deal with the same matter— In page 47, line 26, after 'any,' insert 'under this Act'"— and— in page 47, line 27, to leave out from 'school' to end of Clause, and add 'and in so far as the said sums are not required for that purpose they shall be paid to the local education authority and applied by the authority towards the expenses incurred by them in the maintenance of the school.' The purpose of these Amendments is to deal with income from endowments in a different manner from that provided in the Bill. In the Bill, it is proposed that any surplus of income from the endowments which is used for the maintenance of the schools should be dealt with by way of schemes which will be made by the Minister after this part of the Act comes into operation. There is no indication what sort of scheme the Minister will make, or any details about it, and I feel that, if there is a surplus of income available, it should, first of all, be used for the benefit of the school, and, after that, towards the deficiency which the local authority is making up. I hope that we can get some explanation of what is in the Minister's mind in this Clause, because it is certainly not too clear. I would prefer that any surplus should be made available to the authority making up the deficiency. It is not a very simple matter, but I hope I have made it as clear as possible.

Mr. Ede

This Clause deals with the issue that is raised in Section 41 of the Education Act, 1921, which is, I think, almost unique among the Statutes of the country in allowing the benefactions of a pious founder to be used for the relief of the rates. The note in Owen's "Education Act Manual" runs to several pages, and I think if my hon. Friend, who is probably better acquainted with the volume and knows his way about it rather better than I do, would re-read the paragraphs devoted to this question, he would come to the conclusion that, historically or constitutionally, Section 41 really is an abuse that ought to be wiped away. After all, men who, in the past, left money for the provision of education centred it on particular schools or particular parishes, would be very surprised to find that one of the things that arose out of the ecclesiastical bitternesses of the Act of 1902 was that their surplus moneys were deflected to the relief of rates. What my right hon. Friend proposes to do is—

Mr. Silkin

The Amendment does not suggest that it should go to the relief of rates but to the reduction of a deficiency.

Mr. Ede

If we reduce the deficiency until we reach the position hoped for by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) there will be no rates; every time you decrease the deficiency you decrease the charge on the rates.

Mr. Silkin

I was only referring to a particular school and not to the general rates. There is no objection to using it for the benefit of the school.

Mr. Ede

That it should be used for the benefit of a particular school might be one of the provisions of the scheme. These benefactions left in the past were closely related to particular educational enterprises, and it is very wrong, as has often been the case in various parts of the country, when these endowment; have been used for the reduction of the rates. We desire that surplus moneys shall be used for the benefit of the school, so that the individual desires of the testator shall, as far as possible, be carried out. There are various ways in which a certain amount of individuality and distinction can be given to a school by the use of small revenues of this kind, which make the school a far more individual and distinguished place to the pupils who attend it. I recollect that the elementary school to which I went, benefited by a benefaction which prescribed that the 12 children who attended most regularly should receive, every year, the sum of 4s. 1d.

Mr. Alexander Walkden (Bristol, North)

Did the hon. Member get that?

Mr. Ede

Thanks to the care that my parents took to secure my regular attendance, I secured it every year while I was there, as did also three other members of my family. There are many small endowments of that kind up and down the country which can be used in various ways to give to schools, what I always desire to see, a feeling of individuality. We ought not any longer to perpetuate this particular remnant of the controversies of 1902, but ought to see, as far as possible, that these endowments are used to give to individual schools opportunities for some forms of initiative and enterprise that can be secured by what are generally very small sums placed at their disposal.

Mr. Lindsey

Can my hon. Friend say whether that money could be used for employing a higher ratio of masters to pupils, or, in other words, to increase the staff?

Mr. Ede

That would depend on the way in which it was schemed. Twelve times 4s. 1d. per annum would give you a sort of 12th century schoolmaster income.

Mr. Lindsay

It is much more than 1d.

Mr. Ede

It would depend on the scheme.

Mr. Silkin

In view of the explanation and the assurance that the scheme will provide that the money shall be used for the benefit of the particular schools, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.