HC Deb 23 March 1944 vol 398 cc1195-9
Captain Cobb

I beg to move, in page 47, line 12, after the second "school," to insert: or any other school in receipt of grant in so far as that school provides education to children living in the area on which rates are charged up to that school. The purpose of this Amendment is to exempt schools receiving grants from the Board of Education from rates in so far as they are providing education for the children in that area in which the school is situated. It is a limited Amendment, and I hope my right hon. Friend may be prepared to accept it in order that they may be, in so far as the local children are concerned, in the same position as the local authority schools in the area. I am sure that my right hon. Friend does not need to be reminded of the extremely embarrassing position in which a number of these direct-grant schools are placed in cases where, for instance, a well-to-do old boy presents them with a swimming bath, laboratory or something of that sort. A handsome gift of that kind becomes, in fact, a financial burden to the school. I hope my right hon. Friend may accept either one of these Amendments or the intention contained in them.

Mr. Loftus (Lowestoft)

I take it, Major Milner, that you do not intend to call the Amendment standing in my name.

The Chairman

That is so.

Mr. Loftus

In that case might I speak generally on the point in support of the Amendment moved by my hon. and gallant Friend? I wish to refer very briefly to the position under this Clause as it stands. I take it that all schools receiving grants-in-aid from the local authority are exempt from rates. That, broadly, is the position of certain schools referred to later on in the Bill which get direct grants through the Ministry, and under Clause 93, paragraph (b), obtain direct grants for educational purposes, including the purposes of educational research. It does seems to me illogical that if any school is sufficiently worthy to receive public money, whether from the local authority or direct through the taxes from the Minister, that equality of treatment should not apply as regards exemption from rates. I hope that the Minister will see his way to say that any school receiving public money deserves exemption from the burden of rates.

Mr. Ede

This Amendment deals with a very complicated point in the very complicated rating system of this country. At the present time elementary schools, if they are provided by the county council or the local education authority, are rated. Schools which are secondary schools which are provided by the local education authority are rated. Secondary schools which are not provided by the local education authority but are secondary schools are rated. Voluntary elementary schools are exempt from rating. That is the position at the moment. We have altered the law in this Bill whereby certain voluntary schools which were exempt from rating become secondary schools. If we left the law as it stands all the new senior schools which were erected or may be erected under the Act of 1936 by the various denominations would become liable for rating. We were faced with the difficulty of what we were to do. Were we to say, "Because you have become secondary schools, you shall suffer the disabilities that have always attached hitherto to voluntary secondary schools"? We came to the conclusion that that would be an intolerable position in which to put them, so we amended the law favourably to the present voluntary schools, irrespective of their denominations. This Amendment seeks to bring in a new group of schools, other than the auxiliary schools in the Bill. We have extended the exemption from rating under the Bill to those voluntary schools which get deficiency grant now from the local education authority and have to pay rates at the moment. We have put them in the same position as the auxiliary elementary schools.

Dr. Morgan

Why not put all of them in that category?

Mr. Ede

I know that a man pays his taxes in sorrow, and his rates in anger. My hon. Friend's proposal might deprive him of a great deal of anger; but it would deprive education of a great deal of its grants, and the local authorities of a great deal of their revenue. That is a policy we cannot discuss on this Clause. Those schools which it is now sought to include are left, under the Bill as it stands—Clause 59 rot having been discussed—with the right to charge fees. We have deprived the secondary schools which hitherto charged fees of the right to charge fees if they become auxiliary schools, as the new phrase goes, under the Bill. That is the distinction which is drawn for the future. Those schools which are allowed the right to charge fees are left with the obligation to pay rates.

We have extended this over a wide range of schools. I have always found it difficult to understand the rating principle by which council schools have had to pay rates, because I understand that the general basis of the law is that one should take into account the rent which a person would be prepared to pay every year to use the premises for the particular purposes for which they are used. I cannot see what rent people would be prepared to pay to use premises as elementary schools which are not allowed to charge fees. There is an element of fiction about the matter. But these schools for which fees are chargeable stand in a different category from the others. That is the line which is drawn in this Bill. We are extending the exemptions over a very wide field, and I cannot advise the Committee to extend the principle any further.

Sir John Mellor (Tamworth)

I can see some force in the Parliamentary Secretary's point, about the right to charge fees creating a distinction, but I should have thought that, in good sense and fairness, exemptions from rates might have been extended to direct-grant schools to an extent which would be related to the proportion of local children who were educated at the schools. I hope that, at least, that angle of the matter will be reconsidered by the Board of Education.

Mr. Ede

That would involve the rating authorities in an almost impossible task, because they would have to ascertain from year to year from which areas the children came, in order to assess the school. I cannot see a way of dealing with that point. I am aware, as I am sure other Members associated with rating authorities are aware, of the infinite complexity of this problem. I will see if there is some way by which we can have regard to the extent to which local provision is made by the school, but the matter is one of considerable difficulty, and I hope that my willingness to examine it will not be taken as a pledge to find a solution.

Captain Cobb

May I remind my hon. Friend that the effect of these schools being obliged to pay rates will simply be to increase their deficiency? Therefore, their deficiency grant will have to be increased, with the result that the Board of Education will be subsidising the local rates.

Sir J. Mellor

I am afraid I can hardly agree with the Parliamentary Secretary. There should be no great difficulty in deciding which children are within the area and which are outside the area of the school. It is simply a question of seeing where their home addresses are.

Mr. Lindsay

I beg the Parliamentary Secretary to try to find a way. He said there were a great many anomalies, and, if that is so, why not have another one? These schools are doing superb work and there is no question of their educational value. You are getting some of the best educational work in the country, and if the Minister can find a way round it would be a great help.

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.