HC Deb 19 July 1937 vol 326 cc1780-3
48. Mr. Viant

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing cost of living, he will give early consideration to the need for increasing the allowances of the unemployed and their dependants and also that of the old age pensioners?

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville)

I have been asked to reply. I regret that the answer is in the negative. I would remind the hon. Member that the recent moderate rise in the cost of living index figure followed a prolonged and, in the aggregate, substantial fall.

Mr. Viant

Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recently refreshed his memory, and, furthermore, has he given further consideration to the recent increase that has taken place; and, in the light of that, does he appreciate the hardship which is imposed upon the persons mentioned in the question?

Lieut.-Colonel Colville

Yes, all the circumstances are kept in mind, and a few nights ago, on the Motion for the Adjournment, I gave the House a table of figures showing the movement of the cost of living figure since 1920. Perhaps the hon. Member will look at that.

Mr. Lyons

Is it not a fact that the position of all persons dependent on the State for financial assistance is infinitely safer now than it was during the lifetime of the Socialist Government?

Mr. Gallacher

In view of the seriousness of this question, would the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer not receive a deputation of old age pensioners and unemployed?

49. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the widespread demand for more generous treatment of those persons who are in receipt of old age pensions, he will consider moving to appoint a Committee of the House to inquire into the conditions under which old age pensioners are living; and whether he is aware that in thousands of cases the amount paid by the State has had to be supplemented by public assistance?

Lieut.-Colonel Colville

I have been asked to reply. I do not think that a Committee such as the hon. Member suggests would serve any useful purpose. As regards the second part of the question, I would remind him that the number of old age pensioners who are in receipt of public assistance is less than 10 per cent. of the total number of such pensioners.

Mr. Shinwell

May I ask the Prime Minister, to whom this question was addressed, whether the refusal to set up a Committee is an admission that serious hardships do exist, and whether, having regard to that fact, it is not desirable to bring all these matters into the light of day?

Lieut.-Colonel Colville

There is no lack of knowledge of all the facts, but regard must also be paid to financial considerations.

Mr. Shinwell

Then do I understand that the refusal to set up a Committee is based, not on the Government's refusal to recognise existing hardships, but primarily on financial considerations, and is it not a fact that the Government have utilised public money for purposes not so useful as the granting of old age pensions? May I have an answer to that question?

Mr. Speaker

Clearly that is a matter of opinion.

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of Order. My first point of Order is whether in fact—I put this with great respect—it is within the prerogative of the Chair to determine whether a supplementary question, put on an important public issue, is merely a matter of opinion?

Mr. Speaker

Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Shinwell

Then I decline to accept your Ruling.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Member does not withdraw that remark, I must ask him to leave the Chamber.

Mr. Shinwell

Mr. Speaker—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Withdraw !"]—if I have said anything disrespectful to the Chair, I naturally withdraw, but I want to say, Sir, at the same time, that on a matter of serious public importance I believe that Members of this House have a perfect right to put their point of view, and I shall continue to do so.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Member does not withdraw the latter remark, I shall still have to ask him to withdraw.

Mr. Shinwell

Very naturally I bow to your desire, and I have no desire to come into conflict with the Chair, but I repeat that on important issues of this kind—

Hon. Members

Withdraw!

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member will please leave the Chamber.

The hon. Member withdrew accordingly.