§ 11.0 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsI beg to move, in page 17, line 14, to leave out from the second "coal" to the end of the Sub-section.
§ This Amendment proposes to leave out the last four or five lines of Sub-section (1). It does not seem necessary to us to confer upon the person who is to have the power to acquire land compulsorily, the right to acquire the coal also. If it is necessary for him to dig or move the coal, he can do so perfectly well under a lease from the Commission. If he had the right to get a lease to allow him to carry away the necessary coal, that would still preserve the coal in the ownership of the Commission and would not impair the completeness of their ownership of the coal in the country. Under this Subsection, the power to acquire land compulsorily is apparently only to be conferred where it is necessary to use the coal or the mine "in the course of such operations." I do not know what operations 1120 the hon. and gallant Member has in mind when he considers it necessary to give some authority other than the Commission the power to acquire a mine. This provision seems to open up a very serious danger of the Commission starting, at an early stage, to get rid of the coal which they have purchased. That is highly undesirable. If anybody wants to use the coal, they can get facilities to do so from the Commission, without the necessity of the Commission parting with the freehold.
§ The essence of the Bill surely is that in future, for all time, the Commission should hold the freehold of all the coal and should not in any way divest themselves of it. Difficult questions may arise on this Sub-section. Suppose there are several superimposed seams and it is desired to shift some of them in the course of some work by a railway or other authority. Would this Sub-section give the right to the railway to acquire all the coal in that piece of land, or only the actual coal which they want to shift? If they are able to acquire the mine or the coal, it will involve the whole of the seams, however deep. That may be a very 1121 serious matter for the Commission if, at some future time, someone wants to work through that area to a considerable depth. It would enable this authority to stop anybody from working there. Surely it would be sufficient in this case, if the body with power to acquire land compulsorily, were given power to lease those minerals which it was necessary for them to have. I suppose this would cover the question of coal for the purposes of supports, though it does not say so here. If it only covers the case of digging, mining, and carrying away coal, that is eminently a matter for lease and not a matter for selling a freehold by the Commission to some outside body, thereby breaking the totality of the ownership of the mineral by the Commissioners. We ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to have this altered so as to make it a power to acquire a lease rather than a power to acquire the freehold.
§ Captain CrookshankOur intention is not to deal with any very large matter in this Sub-section. The case that we seek to cover is, say, where power might be given to a local authority to dig a sewer which was situated in ground where the coal was very near the surface, and in the ordinary process of digging the sewer some coal might be brought up. In that case it would be a small matter. The other point raised by the hon. and learned Member about railways is not dealt with here.
§ Sir S. CrippsIt would be much easier to deal with this matter by licence to carry away that which was wanted, rather than by a sale, which would mean, presumably, the whole depth of the land right down to the lower seams. That certainly would not be wanted by a local authority. All that they would want would be a licence to remove the coal that was in their way. That could be dealt with by licence, without sale. Would it not be better for the local authority to obtain from the Commission a licence to remove the coal which they want to get out of their way?
§ Captain CrookshankThe provision made in the Sub-section as to coal necessary to be dug or carried away in the course of the operations would not take them right down to the middle of the earth.
§ Amendment negatived.
1122§ 11.7 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsI beg to move, in page 17, line 27, to leave out Sub-section (3).
§
This Amendment is on the same lines as the previous one, but it deals with a Subsection which seems to give even more power to alienate freehold in coal. I move to omit the Sub-section on the same basis as in the previous Amendment, but this does seem to be a stronger case, because it involves the alienation of the freehold in coal
that is necessary to be used in the course of such operations, or coal present among other minerals that is of so small value that the working thereof is unlikely to be undertaken except as an operation subsidiary to the working of those other minerals.
§
We take the line that this could also be met by lease, if it is necessary to meet it at all. Here, definitely, the Commission are given power to alienate not merely a particular portion of coal, but a mine of coal in a case where someone comes along and says that it is necessary to carry away the coal dug
in the course of operations other than coal mining, or a mine that is necesary to be used in the course of such operations.
§ These words are much wider than is necessary, and we are very nervous lest the Commission might start granting away coal rights, perhaps not knowing how much coal was underneath in the mine or not being aware of the underlying seams. They might alienate the freehold in a mine of coal in such a way as would afterwards be a grave embarrassment to them as regards working in years to come. We do not want any spots in the country where the coal is not owned by the Commission. This situation might be dealt with by lease, which would get over the difficulty of alienating the freehold. I am sure the hon. and gallant Member agrees with us that it is very undesirable to alienate any of the freehold, and that if the position can be met by lease that would much better meet the case, and save any danger of having spots in the coalfields where the Commission would be prevented in the future from granting coal mining leases.
§ 11.10 p.m.
§ Captain CrookshankWe come back here to our old friend "subsidiary hereditaments" and "associated minerals." The object of this Bill is to deal with mines where coal is the predominating 1123 interest, and not with mines where coal is of such small value as to make the mine another kind of mine. The Coal Commission do not want to be responsible for controlling those other mines, and therefore, we think that that is a case where it is reasonable that they should be able to get rid of coal by selling it.
§ 11.11 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsSurely this is all property which the Commission have acquired. They have acquired it either as mines of coal or as subsidiary rights. Some of it they will have acquired as mines of coal. This gives power to alienate the mines of coal and not merely a subsidiary interest. What we are objecting to is their having any right at all to alienate the mines of coal whatever the circumstances are because they have purchased all the coal, and having the mines of coal in their possession we cannot see any conceivable
§ right for them to alienate that, except, of course, by granting leases. It may be that a lease will be granted to someone who is working another mineral, but it can be worked through the lease in that case. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman says is that he is concerned only with coal which occurs among other minerals. He cannot be right, otherwise the words "mines of coal" would not be used here.
§ Captain CrookshankI think I am right. It is a very technical point. The definition of a mine of coal in the Bill is:
a space which is occupied by coal or which has been excavated underground for a coal-mining purpose.Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 208; Noes, 104.
1125| Division No. 61.] | AYES. | [11.14 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Denville, Alfred | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Doland, G. F. | Hulbert, N. J. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. | Hunter, T. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Hutchinson, G. C. |
| Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Jarvis, Sir J. J. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Jones, L. (Swansea W.) |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Duncan, J. A. L. | Keeling, E. H. |
| Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Eastwood, J. F. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Ellis. Sir G. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Levy, T. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Emery, J. F. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Balniel, Lord | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. |
| Baxter, A. Beverley | Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Lloyd, G. W. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Errington, E. | Loftus, P. C. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Everard, W. L. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Fildes, Sir H. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Bird, Sir R. B. | Fleming, E. L. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) |
| Bossom, A. C. | Fox, Sir G. W. G. | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Fremantle, Sir F. E. | McKie, J. H. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Furness, S. N. | Maclay, Hon. J. P. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Macmillan, H- (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Ganzoni, Sir J. | Maonamara, Capt. J. R. J. |
| Brown, Col. O. C. (Hexham) | Gledhill, G. | Magnay, T. |
| Bull, B. B. | Gluckstein, L. H. | Maitland, A. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Gower, Sir R. V. | Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Grant-Ferris, R. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Cary, R. A. | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Grimston, R. V. | Markham, S. F. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Marsden, Commander A. |
| Christie, J. A. | Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Guest, Mai. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N. W.) | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Colfox, Major W. P. | Hannah, I. C. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Harbord, A. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) |
| Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. |
| Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Nall, Sir J. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. |
| Cox, H. B. Trevor | Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. | Nicholson, Hon. H. G. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. |
| Crooke, J. S. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Crookshank. Capt. H. F. C. | Hepworth, J. | Orr-Ewing, I. L. |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Palmer, G. E. H. |
| Cross, R. H. | Higgs, W. F. | Peaks, O. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Holdsworth, H. | Petherick, M. |
| Culverwell, C. T. | Holmes, J. S. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Plugge, Capt. L. F. |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. |
| Porritt, R. W. | Selley, H. R. | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Procter, Major H. A. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Radford, E. A. | Smith, L. W. (Hallam) | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Rankin, Sir R. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. |
| Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) | Spens. W. P. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) | Wells, S. R. |
| Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Strickland, Captain W. F. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Rowlands, G. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Royds, Admiral P. M. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. | Wragg, H. |
| Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. | Tasker, Sir R. I. | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Salt, E. W. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Samuel, M. R. A. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | |
| Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Thomas, J. P. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Sandys, E. D. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. | Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and Mr. |
| Savory, Sir Servington | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Munro. |
| Scott, Lord William | Turton, R. H. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Grenfell, D. R. | Price, M. P. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Ridley, G. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Riley, B. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Hayday, A. | Ritson, J. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) |
| Banfield, J. W. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Batey, J. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Hollins, A. | Silkin, L. |
| Bevan, A. | Jagger, J. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Bromfield, W. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) |
| Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Burke, W. A. | Kelly, W. T. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cape, T. | Kirby, B. V. | Stephen, C. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kirkwood, D. | Stewart, W. J, (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Lathan, G. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Leslie, J. R. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Logan, D. G. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Lunn, W. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dobbie, W. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Westwood, J. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | McGhee, H. G. | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| Ede, J. C. | McGovern, J. | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | MacLaren, A. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Mainwaring, W. H. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Fletcher. Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Messer, F. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Frankel, D. | Muff, G. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Gallacher. W. | Nathan, Colonel H. L. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Garro Jones, G. M. | Noel-Baker, P. J. | |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Oliver, G. H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Paling, W. | Mr. Mathers and Mr. Charleton. |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Parker, J. |
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.