CLAUSE 241.—(Services recruited by Secretary of State.) (Hansard, 21 May 1935)

§ Sir S. HOARE
I beg to move, in page 135, line 8, after "shall," to insert "until Parliament otherwise determines."
This Amendment and the two following Amendments on the Order Paper in my name are proposed as the result of the discussion which we had on the Committee stage as to the future inquiry into the conditions of the Secretary of State's ser vices. The House will remember that, under the original proposal of the Bill, it was proposed that changes, if changes take place in the future, should be made by Order-in-Council. The view was then expressed from a good many hon. Members that changes of that kind should be made by an amending Act rather than by an Order-in-Council. I undertook to accept the spirit of these proposals, and the proposed Amendments to this Clause are the result of my undertaking. In these Amendments, I make it clear that existing conditions continue with the Secretary of State's services until Parliament otherwise determines, and I make clear in Sub-section (4), which I propose to move to add to the Clause, that: It shall be the duty of the Governor-General to keep the Secretary of State in formed as to the operation of this Section, and he may after the expiration of such period as he thinks fit make recommendations for the modification thereof. In discharging his functions under this Sub-section, the Governor-General shall act in his discretion.? The object of this further Sub-section is this. The Joint Select Committee accepted the view that, at some time in the future, an inquiry would be necessary into the changed conditions of service. It is very important, from every point of view, that we should make it clear that we have not abandoned the attitude that, at some time in the future, we have to have an inquiry. The conditions of service are bound to change in the nature of things. How far those changes should react upon the actual position of the civil servants is a question for Parliament to decide in the future. We, however, desire to make it clear that we contemplate an inquiry at some time in the future, and that it is very important that the Secretary of State should be kept regularly informed by the Governor-General as to the conditions in existence, and as to any changes that are taking place. It is on that 1006 account that I regard Sub-section (4) as an integral part of the proposal that I am making. The proposal is, in the first place, that existing conditions go on until Parliament otherwisedetermines—and that carries out the undertaking which Igave—and, secondly, that the Secretary of State here should be kept regularly informed as to how the constitutional changes are reacting on service conditions, and that the Governor-General should be empowered to make recommendations to the Secretary of State upon the subject. The position of Parliament is not compromised. At the same time, we make it clear, both to the House and to Indians in India, that we have not abandoned the position maintained in the Joint Select Committee, that, in the nature of things, the constitutional changes must react upon service conditions in the future, and that that reaction must, at some time in the future, involve an inquiry. I, therefore, move the first Amendment standing in my name, and point out that the other two Amendments are integral parts of it.

§ Mr. MORGAN JONES
I am sorry that the Secretary of State has found it necessary to make this alteration at this stage. He made reference to our discussions on the Joint Select Committee. It is well known, at least to those who have taken the trouble to read our Minority Report, that in our discussion of the problem we—I mean my hon. Friends and I who represented this side of the House on the Committee—committed ourselves to the proposition that a greater Indianisation of the Civil Service should take place than that contemplated in the White Paper of the Government. We were not able to convince our colleagues on the Committee of the virtue of that proposal, but the Bill originally presented to us provided that any alteration which circumstances justified in this matter could be made by means of Order in Council with out special and specific recourse to Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman, in response to pressure put upon him during the Committee stage, has felt it necessary to add further limiting words, and now, so far from it being a change made possible merely by reference to an Order in Council, a change can only take place after Parliament has so deter mined. I am sorry that he has to make 1007 that change, apart altogether from the general situation which we had in our minds when we drafted our alternative report.
There is no doubt that as years go by and the Indian people acquire a greater knowledge of the business of self-Government, and so on, there will be greater pressure for Indians in the Civil Service in India among Indians themselves. I think that a wise Government in this country would be disposed to provide facilities for a more rapid entry of Indians into the Civil Service than has hitherto been possible, but if it is to remain the law of the Medes and Persians, so to speak, until Parliament other wise determines, then clearly we are in the presence of a condition which becomes more hard and fast. It would be governed, too, not merely by conditions in India as they will exist some years hence, but it will be conditioned by other circumstances which have nothing at all to do with India. It will depend largely upon the state of Parliamentary business here, how the particular business of the Government is proceeding, whether there is Parliamentary time for it, is the whole of it mortgaged, and so on, whether internal British problems are so pressing that no time can be afforded for the discussion of Indian problems. The consequence may be that, while the case may be ample and strong, and indeed overwhelming, for a change in the conditions of the Service in India, conditions here in Britain may prevent the Government of the day from meeting that situation as it might otherwise desire to do.
The Secretary of State said that there is no departure from the intention that there should be an inquiry at some future date; but even if such an inquiry took place and the result favoured what we ourselves suggested in the alternative Draft Report, the Secretary of State would not be able to do anything—noteven by Order in Council. Under the present proposal he must have recourse to Parliament, with all the complication that Parliamentary discussion involves. I am sorry that he has found it necessary to make this fresh concession. I sup pose it is a, concession to his friends on the other side. I rather suspect that it it. I am becoming somewhat alarmed 1008 about the growing rapprochement between hon. Members on the other side and the.Government Bench. Perhaps coming events are casting their shadows before. I am sorry that the concession has been made, because I think it rather takes away from the rightness of the general principle that the Indians themselves have maintained, that a self-governing authority ought to have greater scope than is provided in the Bill for securing the quick recruitment of those who are to serve it in a civil capacity.

§ Sir H. CROFT
The hon. Member need have no fear that, in spite of indifference of so many hon. Members on this question of India, Parliament will not be able to spare a day, or perhaps a couple of days, in the future to decide whether or not the Secretary of State is still to exercise its functions in connection with these great reforms. I do not think that we have sunk so low that in the days to come we shall not be able to spare a few hours to decide a very important subject like that. I stand corrected if the Secretary of State says that I am wrong, but I am inclined to think that there are not limiting words. My suggestion would be that it is almost unnecessary to say, "Until Parliament otherwise determines," because Parliament can always otherwise determine. I presume that the phrase has been put in to make a distinction between an Order in Council and Parliament; otherwise the words might have remained there. Thirty or 40years hence the Minister who may be sitting on the bench opposite will surely not contemplate anything drastic by Order in Council without taking into consultation the whole of the serried ranks sitting behind him, as well as the other parties in the House. There is one small danger in the actual words which are to be put in. If we put in the precise words, "until Parliament otherwise determines," is there not a possibility that that may give the impression that the matter is always open for revision, and that other Parliaments will have to be reminded from time to time that the provisions of this Clause exist? I am wondering whether the precise way in which the words are inserted may have the effect of causing agitation and of raising the subject frequently in the 1009 debates of the Legislative Assembly. I do not say that the words do not limit the powers, but there is some danger in the actual phraseology.

§ Lord EUSTACE PERCY
There is no Law Officer present, and I was going to ask, for greater certainty, whether it is quire clear that the words "until Parliament otherwise determines "mean until an amending Statute is passed. Parliament can determine by Resolution.

§ Sir S. HOARE
There is no ground for the anxiety of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) nor can the words be open to the misunderstanding suggested. My hon. and gallant Friend and my Noble Friend the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) may take it from me that the words are all right.