REGIMENTAL CHARITABLE FUNDS BILL [LORDS]. (Hansard, 15 March 1935)

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking)
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill can be described as a typical Friday afternoon measure. It is simple, non-controversial and deals with one subject matter, namely, the transfer of moneys from the out-of-date Military Savings Bank into the hands of the United Services Trustee. It has already passed all stages in another place without any opposition. The position briefly is this. Eighty years ago charitable funds of regiments were compulsorily placed in the hands of the Military Savings Bank; there was no option. The Secretary of State had to make himself responsible for the capital and had to fix the rate of interest to be paid on the capital. It is true that it was fixed subject to a maximum. Since 1849 regimental charitable funds have not been subjected to this compulsory treatment.
There are only 35 units affected by the Bill, and the total sum involved is only £71,000. The Bill will free these units from this restrictive treatment and bring them into line with similar funds in the possession of other units of the Army. It will not be necessary for units of the 793 Army which desire to invest funds of this kind to invest them in the Military Savings Bank, if they do not wish to do so. They do, in fact, prefer to have them invested in the United Services Trustee. Most of the other funds are now held and invested by the United Services Trustee, into whose hands, if this Bill becomes law, this £71,000 will come. That is the whole story.
May I at this point, in order to have time, say a word on the Financial Resolution; it may be convenient. Paragraph (1) of the Financial Resolution is in case the invested money now in the Military Savings Bank, upon sale, does not realise the capital sum standing to the credit of the various funds. In that case, the Treasury will have to make good the deficit. That is a very unlikely contingency so long as the transfer is made during the lifetime of the present Government, because during the lifetime of the present Government, Government stocks will stand high. The reason for Paragraph (2) is that the United Services Trustee charges a small acceptance fee for the new fund, and so that this particular fee of £125 shall not come out of these funds it has been provided that it shall come out of Army funds. That is all I have to say on the Financial Resolution. Finally, the Bill is desired by the 35 regiments who are concerned, it will remove an anomaly, which is unnecessary and vexatious and I hope that the House will not resist its passage into law.

§ Mr. LAWSON
We will, of course, give the Bill a clear passage. It is true that it is a typical Friday afternoon Bill, but at the same time it would not have been unprofitable if we could have had a discussion on the wider question as to what moneys are now in the hands of the United Services Trustee, and the many charities which they represent. It would have been of great interest to many hon. Members. Of course, we cannot discuss that on this Bill. At the same time, I think it would be of great value if the War Office could see their way to let hon. Members know what are the various charities connected with the various units in the Army now coming under the United Services Trustee, because it would facilitate hon Members in asking for help from these funds for any of their constituents, and be of considerable 794 value to ex-soldiers who do not know where to go for financial help.
It is true that this Bill is a kind of carrying over. It deals with what was a hand-to-mouth business in the days before there was anything like the provision for the soldier that there is now. It has been necessary, as the Financial Secretary has said, to get legal authority for the taking of these funds out of the present savings bank, and putting them under the United Services Trustee. Looking at Clause 2 I assume that there will probably be no financial responsibility as far as this House is concerned, no charge upon Army funds. But I can see that it is necessary to have such a Clause, because there will be obligations arising, and the change-over may have the effect of limiting the amount from these funds which is at the disposal of the United Services Trustee and that he may have to call upon the Army to make up that small amount.

§ Mr. HACKING
The position with regard to paragraph 2 of the Financial Resolution is that the United Services Fund charges a fee before taking over any new fund. That fee will be about £125, and that fee it is proposed to pay out of the Army fund and not out of the charitable funds.

§ Mr. LAWSON
I was alluding to Subsection (2) of Clause 1 of the Bill, which provides that: Any sums required to enable the Secretary of State to make any payment under the foregoing Sub-section shall, in so far as they are not provided out of the proceeds of the sale of investments held by the National Debt Commissioners on account of the Fund for the Military Savings Banks, be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.

§ Mr. HACKING
I thought the hon. Member was referring to paragraph 2 of the Financial Resolution. The position is this: If the sale of the investments does not realise the capital, then the Treasury would have to make the deficiency good, but this money at present is invested in 3½ per cent. War Loan, and that is standing sufficiently high at the moment to ensure that there will be no loss to the country and no charge on the Treasury.

§ Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN
My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary said that only 35 regiments are concerned 795 with this matter. To the commanding officers of those 35 regiments it will be very pleasant news to hear this news for for the first time. It is good of the War Office, when so little is known about these regimental funds, to declare that there is something for the regiments. My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) raised a question which is worthy of consideration. He asked whether there is a list of all these regimental associations and charities, and said that such a list would often be a help as a means of supplementing a pension paid by the Pensions Ministry when that pension is not a full pension. There is such a list, and some years ago it was sent to me by the Ministry of Pensions. I do not know whether it was prepared by the War Office or the Ministry of Pensions. It ought to be more advertised, so that all may know that there is such a thing.
The Financial Secretary has been asked questions several times lately about a Yeomanry fund which was supposed to have been started during the South African war. I do not know whether it is in the list of associations that will be included in this scheme, but if there is such a Yeomanry fund I think it should be handed over, and be dealt with in the same way as the funds of the 35 regiments referred to. As far as I can make out these funds are to be handed over to the commanding officers of regiments. Is that so, or are they to be handed over to the associations?

§ Mr. HACKING
The Yeomanry are not included in the long list which I have here. Therefore it would be out of order to discuss that matter. My hon. and gallant Friend's other question was as to the handing over to the commanding officers. The existing conditions will probably continue in almost every case. The Secretary of State can make orders with regard to the use of the interest on these funds, but it is his determination that what happens at the present moment shall be continued if it is felt that it is in the interests of the fund itself. At 796 the present moment the capital cannot be touched by the commanding officer and the association, and so in future the capital will be kept intact and it will be only the interest that is used.