HC Deb 15 March 1935 vol 299 cc788-92

Order for Second Beading read.

1.45 p.m.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Captain Crookshank)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

I do not think that I need detain the House for long over this Bill. It is a machinery Measure. If we wanted to discuss the question of land purchase in Ireland we should have to take up the history books because that question has occupied the attention of this House for the last 65 years. This Bill is one to wind up something, which is very unusual so far as this House is concerned. Through the lapse of time and the successful work which has been put in in Northern Ireland, which is all that the Home Secretary and I are concerned with, and the success of the policy, the transfer of agricultural land in Northern Ireland will shortly be completed. The Bill is for the purpose of winding up the system of land purchase, for abolishing the Commission and the consequent transfer of its functions in so far as some of them will have to be continued administratively.

It was in the year 1925 that we passed the last Act dealing with this matter to which I need refer. That date is of some importance so far as Northern Ireland land purchase is concerned, because up to that time the system was principally voluntary. In 1925 this House decided to provide for the completion as soon as possible of the transfer of tenanted land by automatic procedure on a compulsory basis. That is now very nearly complete. The process of compulsory purchase consists, first of all, of transferring the land from the original owner to the Commission and then afterwards re-vesting it in the tenants. The first part of that process, that of transferring the land from the owners to the Commission, is to all intents and purposes complete now, but there is the re-vesting to do, and that is not quite complete. The allocation of purchase money is very difficult work and may take a little further time owing to the difficulty of proving titles. When the Act was passed in 1925, bringing in the compulsory system the previous legislation on a voluntary basis was not repealed. Therefore, that also, although it is not very much in use at the moment, is to be brought to an end. The Bill introduces no new principle. I may say, in passing, that its provisions have been agreed upon between ourselves and the Government of Northern Ireland as being the best machinery for clearing up what remains to be cleared up.

Let me deal briefly with the various Clauses of the Bill. Clause 1, sub-sections (1) and (2), when read in conjunction with the First Schedule make the necessary provision for the cessation of the advances and also enables the Commission to be wound up when its services will no longer be required. The allocation to which I have referred is done by the Judicial Commissioner, who is also a judge of the High Court in Northern Ireland. The second Clause transfers these judicial functions which the Judicial Commissioner now carries out, to the High Court. Clause 3 and 4 are machinery Clauses, dealing with various administrative powers regarding the liabilities which still remain on some of this land, for example, as indicated in Clause 3, the right of taking turf, mineral rights, drainage and so forth. These functions are transferred to the Ministry of Finance of the Northern Ireland Government. Clause 5 transfers the function of making rules. Clause 7 transfers property. Clause 8 enables officers to be transferred to the Supreme Court. Clause 9 provides for the con- tinuance in office of the Land Purchase Trustee in whom to a certain limited extent the purchase money is vested, due to the fact that there is no other public trustee in Northern Ireland. Therefore, the land purchase trustee fulfils functions which are carried out in this country by the public trustee. Clause 10 deals with the transfer of records. Clause 11 provides for sums which had to be treated as expenses of the Commission to be paid out of moneys to be provided by Parliament and then recovered from Northern Ireland. Clause 12 gives power to make Orders in Council, which can be prayed against, in order to tidy up in even more minute detail what remains after we have dealt with the matters in the Bill. All these Clauses deal with the winding up of the land purchase system and of the Commission itself, and the transfer of the powers of the Commission.

There is one further matter, which is dealt with in Clause 6 and also in the third paragraph of Clause 1, which refers to the existing financial arrangements resulting from the transfer of the land under the various Acts since 1870 onwards. These are not affected by this Bill. For instance, the payment of the annuities at statutory rates by the tenants, and the conditions governing the securities issued for the payment of the purchase money to the landlords. The Government of Northern Ireland will have no power to interfere with these matters at all. If they wanted in future to inaugurate some new system of land purchase, they would be free to do so under the provisions of the Bill, because it would no longer be a reserved matter, provided they do not interfere with the consequences of sales under the existing schemes. In respect of these the financial arrangements with regard to annuities, and so forth, will continue as they are now. Under Clause 6 the residuary functions of the Commission which are not transferred either to the High Court or to the Minister of Finance of the Northern Ireland Government remain with the Treasury here. These are concerned mainly with the maintenance of sinking funds and other financial matters which are necessary to preserve the general financial structure of the whole system, which has existed for so long.

I am not sure that I have made the position very clear, but the House may take it from me, as one who has often raised objections to this kind of Measure, that I am satisfied that it is nothing but a piece of pure mechanism to wind up certain functions which are no longer needed, and to transfer remaining powers where they need to be transferred. In conclusion, I should like to offer a word of praise to the members of the Commission, their predecessors, and their staff, for the way in which they have brought this very important work, which has been the subject of so much discussion in the past, to a successful conclusion.

1.56 p.m.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES

The hon. and gallant Gentleman did not do himself justice when he said that he had not explained the Bill fully. He has thrown a great deal of light on what to me was a very dark problem. I have been trying to wrestle with the provisions of this Bill for the last day or two. The measure is no doubt necessary, but I hope that the Under-Secretary will be good enough to tell us what the final cost is going to be to this country. Are there any liabilities which will remain on the Treasury in this country in respect to these financial arrangements after the winding up. When you wind up a company you do not always get rid of your liabilities. Some one suffers, and, therefore, I hope that hon. Members from Northern Ireland will not be offended if I say that some of us think that Northern Ireland has had a fair share of money from this country from time to time. We would like to know, therefore, whether this is a real winding up, whether we are cutting adrift from any liabilities we may have with Northern Ireland in this matter.

I have been looking into the historical background of this business but it is not worth while entering into that to-day. It is much better left alone. There is one point in connection with the transfer of the staff which I should like to mention. I notice that whenever there is a question of superannuation for members of a staff employed by the State that the word "officer" is always inserted. While I agree that the superannuation of officers of the State should be safeguarded, I do not think that their interests alone should be considered, and I want to know whether the other members of the staff, who are going to be transferred to this new authority, will also be safeguarded in the same way as far as superannuation and other kindred interests are concerned. In regard to Orders in Council, we are getting a little familiar with this sort of proposal in Bills brought forward by the Government, and it will be our duty to scrutinise them when they are issued. Finally I could almost wish that we were not only winding up this problem of land purchase in Ireland but winding up the present national government in this country.