HC Deb 07 April 1930 vol 237 cc1918-23

11.0 p.m.

The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. T. Shaw)

I beg to move, in page 4. line 15, at the end, to insert the words: (2) In Sub-section (1) of Section six. paragraphs (b), (h) and (k) (including the word "or" immediately preceding the last-mentioned paragraph) shall be omitted. and in Sub-section (2) of the said Section after paragraph (e) the following paragraphs shall be inserted: 'or '(f) Without orders from his superior officer, leaves his guard, piquet, patrol or post; or (g) By discharging firearms, drawing swords, heating drums, making signals, using words, or by any means whatever, intentionally occasions false alarms in action, an the march, in the field, or elsewhere; or '(h) Being a soldier acting as sentinel. leaves his post before he is regularly relieved,' When we were in Committee, owing to a regrettable mistake, a decision was taken, or recorded, which was evidently against the wishes of the Committee, and I think the House will welcome an opportunity of recording what is its real opinion on this matter. What I propose is that the three offences mentioned in (f),(g) and (h) should be removed from the Section under which a death penalty can be inflicted to the Section under which the death penalty is deleted and in which imprisonment can be inflicted. The Committee left absolutely no doubt in the minds of anyone as to what the intention of the large majority was. It was, that the death penalty should be restricted to two broad offences, one treachery, the other mutiny. I shall not make a long speech on the matter which was debated fully in Committee. It is only the regrettable accident that happened that makes it necessary for me to move this Amendment.

Mr. GUINNESS

It is quite true that last Thursday we had a Debate of more than two hours on the point dealt with by this Amendment, and that had it not been for the accident that hon. Members opposite did not understand how the question was being put we should no doubt have had a division on the question. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that in view of the other decisions that we had on that same occasion, and the expression of opinion from other parties, there is no doubt that the majority are in favour of the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has now proposed so as to put the Bill back into the form in which it was introduced by him. In these circumstances I do not think it would be reasonable to keep the House up by debating the subject again. As soon as we discussed this somewhat narrow issue we had a further Debate and Division on a much larger question—the suppression of the death penalty in the case of desertion on active service. In view of the decision of the Committee, a decision which most of us on these benches considered to be unwise, it would be clearly straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel if we were to divide on this smaller issue now.

Colonel Sir GEORGE COURTHOPE

I do not want to delay the House for more than a moment, but I feel that I am entitled to say a word before the Amendment is put, because it was on an Amendment moved by me in Committee that the alleged mistake was made the other night. No doubt the Government honestly believe that it is in the interests of the men themselves that they are putting forward this Amendment, but I believe that they are making a very grave mistake. We all hope that war on the scale of the Great War may never take place again. We all hope that we may never be exposed to dangers of that kind again. If we are not to be exposed to such dangers again, it does not matter in the least to anybody if the capital penalty remains on the Statute Book. A number of Members here have, no doubt, like myself, taken duty at listening posts and positions of that kind during the great War. It is 15 years ago since I had an experience of that kind, but the memory of it is as fresh as if it had occurred yesterday, and, as a result of experience, I feel confident that the House, by carrying this Amendment, will be making a mistake against the interests of the very men whom it wishes to relieve from an extreme liability. Let me try to picture to the House what this position is. I am speaking now, not of the middle paragraph in the Amendment of the Secretary of State for War, which deals with the discharge of firearms and false alarms. I do not mind much about that paragraph, because I do not think that what it deals with is a probable danger in modern warfare. I am speaking of paragraphs (f) and (h) which deal with the case of a sentry or picket or guard leaving his post. Those of use who, during the great War, had experience of listening-posts in "no man's land," know what a nerve-racking task that was.

Probably there is no individual duty performed by the soldier which is so important from the point of view of his comrades, and probably there is no individual duty which, at certain times, puts so severe a strain upon the nerves of the soldier. I, personally, with those very vivid memories of "no man's land" during the Great War in French Flanders, in my mind, feel that to pass this Amendment is to put a temptation and a difficulty in the way of nerve-racked men. I can only judge from my experience of the Great War and one can only assume that if there is another war, the soldier will have to face similar or even worse experiences. What was the experience in the last War? The man on duty of this kind, found himself, very likely, lying soaked to the skin and chilled to the bone, straining every nerve of eye and ear, for sight or sound which might indicate a danger threatening his comrades in the trenches behind him. A man in that position knew that the safety of his comrades and perhaps even the honour of his country, depended upon his watchfulness. The man was worn with weeks and months of war.

I appeal to those Members of the House who have been through such an experience themselves, to recall their own feelings on such occasions. Every sound may seem to a man in that position to be the movement of an enemy advancing upon him. There were rats scuttling through the shell-holes. Later in the season when plant growth took place, it was remarkable to notice the wind among the poppies. It sounded like hosts of men creeping on. Then there were the shadows cast by the clouds moving across a fitful moon, and the ground mist rising and drifting into one's face, which seemed to smell of gas, that most deadly thing in war. Another element which tried a man's nerve were the sound of every shell going overhead. Those who experienced it will agree that I am not overstating the case as it appeared to a tired man. The sound of every shell, in my experience, always seemed at one moment in its flight to be coming straight to oneself. It was a terrible strain upon an overwrought nerve. What was worse still was the trench mortar, the aerial torpedo or the Minnenwerfer, with its slow, winding gloomy flight that seemed to last so long. The thud as it fell on the earth seemed to shake the ground all round one, and one waited in that breathless second, which seemed so long, for the explosion which might send one to eternity.

Then there was the terribly slow movement of time, the looking at one's wristwatch, and thinking, "Surely my time is over," and finding that half your watch is still to go. All these things made the present seem like hell. Any chance of getting away from it seemed to certain men like heaven. If we had a war like the last, and the manhood of the nation is conscripted, heaven would mean only two places—hospital or prison. If you get to hospital, you have to be wounded. Prison is left to the weak mind that gives way, to the man who fails as the slow minutes pass on in that listening post waiting for the relief to come. The possibility of prison leads to the greatest possibility of relief and changes from hell to heaven. It is proposed by this Amendment that they should go to penal servitude, and that is why I object to it. It is holding out a great temptation to nerve-racked men under the conditions which I have tried to describe. It is holding out an opportunity of the one thing for which he is craving in his weakness. It is the greatest mistake in the world to regard these things as punishment for an individual crime. I could have forgiven any man any crime, but what I am trying to tell the House is that if they pass this Amendment, far from giving any relief to that individual, they are taking from him one of the things that help him to stick to his job. They will be holding out to him a great temptation that may seem irresistible. I can understand the mentality of a man to whom such a temptation may prove almost irresistible. If he gives way to that temptation, he is jeopardising the lives of his comrades who are sleeping the sleep of exhaustion behind him, relying on his watchfulness. Therefore, on behalf, not only of those comrades who depend upon the sentries doing their duty, but on behalf of the sentries themselves, I appeal to the House not to put temptation in their way, not to take away anything that may be a help in the hour of stress and nerve-rack to the individual man to stick to his job and do his duty.

Lieut. - Colonel Sir GODFREY DALRYMPLE-WHITE

It has struck me that these Debates have ranged only over the possibilities of another European war. We have talked about nerve-racked men and that, in the minds of many hon. Members, may have given the impression that there is some unreality about this discussion, because they hope, as we all hope, that, with the League of Nations and after the experiences of the last War, it may be very long before there will be a European war of the same sort as the last, and perhaps never. What we have to face is that year after year we are exposed to frontier wars, on the frontiers of India and other places, where we fight against very cunning and crafty foes, whether Waziris or Afridis; men who can creep in on the sleeping troops.

If this Amendment is carried, there is nothing to prevent the whole of an outpost, headed by the officer who commands it, leaving its post and allowing the wild tribe to come in and massacre those who lie behind.

There is another point. Everyone has his views about capital punishment, whether in the Army or in civil life. I would say that there is much less reason for doing away with the death penalty on active service than in civil life, because, after all, if you acquit a murderer, you hope he will not murder somebody else, but if you risk it on active service it is a matter not only of one man's life, but of many men's lives. I hope the House will consider that we are not merely legislating as to whether this shall take place in another European war in the terrible conditions of the last War, but that we have to think of our Empire frontiers, whether in India or Africa, and the possibility that sleeping troops may be killed simply and solely owing to the fact that the outposts have come in, thinking that perhaps it is better to be imprisoned than to go through the nerve-strain.

Amendment agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.