RATING AND VALUATION BILL. (Hansard, 23 November 1925)

HC Deb 23 November 1925 vol 188 cc969-91 969

§ Order read for consideration as amended (in the Standing Committee).

Marquess of HARTINGTON
I beg to move, "That the Bill be re-committed to the former Committee."
In doing so, I am actuated by a desire to save the time of the House rather than spend it, therefore I shall be brief in explaining my reasons. In the first place, a considerable volume of Amendments appears on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health. Many of these Amendments have not been fully discussed in Committee, and they should, I submit, be given a more careful consideration than is possible on the Report stage. The proposed new Sub-section (4) in Clause 1, for example, is in the nature of the redemption of a pledge which the right hon. Gentleman gave during the Committee stage, and, as one would expect in the case of any pledge given by the right hon. Gentleman, he does all, and more than all, that he said he would do. What, he said, however, was that he would try to meet the wishes of the Members who were nervous about that Clause generally. I submit that the Clause, even as amended, will not achieve the object in view, and that the Committee to which the undertaking was given should discuss the question in detail. Again, during the Committee stage a very considerable alteration was made in the law by the addition of Clause 64, which provides for the rating of Crown property. The right hon. Gentleman is moving to delete that Clause again. That raises a question which ought to be discussed by the Committee which inserted the Clause. I do not here go into the merits or demerits of the Clause, but the right hon. Gentleman's proposal entails consequential Amendments in many parts of the Bill if effect is to be given to it. Now that the Government are setting up machinery which they hope will make the system of rating clearer and better they have no cause for going behind the Committee in this matter. Further, there are many Clauses in the Bill which will become absolutely ineffective in their working 970 when the Government's proposed reform of the Poor Law takes effect. If hon. members look at Clauses 16 and 17 they will see that the words "boards of guardians" occur over and over again. Clause 17, Sub-section (3) states, in reference to the constitution of the assessment committees: Of the persons to be so appointed not less than one quarter shall be persons appointed to represent the boards of guardians. It further states: The persons appointed as aforesaid to represent boards of guardians shall be persons nominated by the boards. That is a provision to which many members of the Committee attached great importance. We thought it would go some little way towards protecting the rights of the rural ratepayers, which we believe will be very gravely jeopardised by this Bill. We did not know then that it was the intention of the Government to abolish the boards of guardians altogether, apparently before the Bill takes effect, so that this provision will be of no value whatever. Clauses 16 and 17, which set up the new valuation machinery, are, perhaps, the most important and most far-reaching in the Bill. They represent the pivot upon which the new valuation machinery will turn. The Committee discussed these Clauses, and also Clause 18, at considerable length, the discussion lasting for five if not six days, but in the light of what we know now, the Committee were under a misapprehension all the time. It would now appear that almost every sentence in those Clauses requires redrafting and reconsideration. That can be much better done after discussion upstairs. There are also Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Barn-staple (Mr. B. Peto), and others in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Maldon (Major Ruggles-Brise) and others, which I believe cannot be discussed at all on the Report stage of the Bill.
If those Amendments stood alone the difficulty could be met by moving the recommittal of the one Clause in question, but my contention is that there are so many Clauses which require alteration since the Committee stage as a consequence of legislation which we know to be pending, that it is far better and 971 simpler to recommit the Bill and to take the discussion of the whole question upstairs, where we can thrash out the details, than to proceed now with the Report stage. I also submit that in this way the time of the House will be saved. The Clauses 16, 17, 18 and 66, the proposed new Clause, the long list of Amendments by the Government, and the Sixth Schedule definitely require recommittal. I earnestly appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health in this matter. I oppose him very reluctantly indeed, but many of us representing rural constituencies feel strongly that the rights of the rural community are gravely threatened by this Bill. It is intensely disagreeable to us to oppose the right hon. Gentleman here, but we feel there is a case for recommittal, and I ask him not to put us in a very difficult position by forcing the Bill through on the Floor of the House. The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that the Bill was passed reluctantly by the Committee, and it was only after many heartsearchings that we supported it largely because of our allegiance. I shall not carry opposition to a factious length. The right hon. Gentleman knows that with very little obstruction it could be made impossible to get the Bill through in the three days which are allowed. I do not intend to take part in any opposition of that kind, but I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to give us an opportunity of discussing some of these things again, and not to strain our party allegiance too far.

§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain)
I have listened to my Noble Friend with much interest, and with a full appreciation of the spirit which inspired his closing words. I am well aware that the course which he thinks it his duty to take is not one which is pleasant personally, and that he does in fact find himself in a difficult position in trying to square his allegiance to his party with the course he thinks it proper for him to take. I think really that what he desires could be best achieved by a vote against the Third Reading of the Bill, because it is really only the rejection of the Bill which he is asking for in this Motion for recommittal. I need not elaborate that, because it must be perfectly obvious to the House that, if this Bill were to go back again to the Committee in order that all those various and complicated portions 972 to which he has referred might be rediscussed in the Committee, it would be physically impossible for the Bill to come back to this House in time to be dealt with before the end of this Session. It would, therefore, be the destruction of the Bill, and I venture to put it to my Noble Friend that it is not saving the time of the House to discuss the life or death of the Bill at this particular stage. There is only one point which he made to which I wish to call attention. He spoke of the large number of Amendments that appear on the Paper, and the changes that will take place in the Bill since it was discussed in Committee stage. There can only be any force in that argument if the Amendments on the Paper introduced into the Bill changes which were not contemplated or not discussed in Committee, but that is not the case.
I would challenge my Noble Friend to find, out of all these Amendments, anything which involves any change of vital importance in the Bill which was not fully discussed in Committee, Many of the Amendments are due to concessions which I made in Committee and which I promised to put into form when the Bill reached the Floor of this House; many other Amendments are merely of a drafting character, and are improvements in the wording of various Clauses, to make meanings more clear, as will be seen by the House as we go along; and really there is no force in the argument that the Bill has been or will be changed by the Amendments which are on the Paper in such a way as in any way to stultify the discussions in the Committee or to make it necessary that the Bill should go back. It is on the main ground that this Motion really amounts to a rejection of the Bill that I regret that I cannot see my way to accept it, and I trust the House will support me in that attitude.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD rose—

§ Mr. SPEAKER
This discussion is governed by Standing Order 40A.

Marquess of HARTINGTON
I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

§ HON. MEMBERS: No!

§ Question put, "That the Bill be recommitted to the former Committee."

§ The House divided: Ayes, 93: Noes, 284.

935

Division No. 383.]	AYES.	[4.13 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Hume, Sir G. H.
Albery, Irving James	Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Hurd, Percy A.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hurst, Gerald B.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Dalkeith, Earl of	Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Apsley, Lord	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Jacob, A. E.
Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Jephcott, A. R.
Atholl, Duchess of	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Drewe, C.	Knox, Sir Alfred
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lamb, J. Q.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.
Berry, Sir George	Elliot Captain Walter E.	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Betterton, Henry B.	Elveden, Viscount	Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Bird, E. B. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Little, Dr. E. Graham
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Erskine James Malcolm Monteith	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Everard, W. Lindsay	Loder, J. de V.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Looker, Herbert William
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Lowe, Sir Francis William
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Lumley L. R.
Brass, Captain W.	Finburgh S.	Lynn, Sir R. J.
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Fleming, D. P.	MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Forrest, W.	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Briscoe, Richard George	Foster, Sir Harry S.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Macintyre, Ian
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Fraser Captain Ian	McLean, Major A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Frece, Sir Walter de	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Buckingham, Sir H.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Macquisten, F. A.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Ganzoni, Sir John	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Bullock, Captain M.	Gates, Percy	Malone, Major P. B.
Burman, J. B.	Gaule, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Margesson, Captain D.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Meller, R. J.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Gower, Sir Robert	Meyer, Sir Frank
Butt, Sir Alfred	Grace John	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Grant, J. A.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Caine, Gordon Hall	Grotrian, H. Brent	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Campbell, E. T.	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	Moles, Thomas
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Hall, Lieut.-Col Sir F (Dulwich)	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)	Moore, Sir Newton J.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Hall, Capt, W. D. A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Hammersley, S. S.	Moreing, Captain A. H.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Harland, A.	Murchison, C. K.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Harrison, G. J. C.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hartington, Marquess of	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Christie, J. A.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer	Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Nuttall, Ellis
Clarry, Reginald George	Haslam, Henry C.	Oakley, T.
Clayton, G. C.	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Pease, William Edwin
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Pennefather, Sir John
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Penny, Frederick George
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cohen, Major J. Brunei	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Conway, Sir W Martin	Hilton, Cecil	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Cooper, A. Duff	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Philipson, Mabel
Cope, Major William	Holland, Sir Arthur	Pielou, D. P.
Couper, J. B.	Holt, Captain H. P.	Pilcher, G.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Pilditch, Sir Philip
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Power, Sir John Cecil
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Crook, C. W.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Preston, William
Ramsden, E.	Smithers, Waldron	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Rawson, Alfred Cooper	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)	Sprot, Sir Alexander	Wells, S. R.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Remnant, Sir James	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)	Wiggins, William Martin
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Rice, Sir Frederick	Storry Deans, R.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.	Winby, Colonel L, p.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.	Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Naim)	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser	Wise, Sir Fredric
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid	Wolmer, Viscount
Rye, F. G.	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.	Womersley, W. J.
Salmon, Major I.	Templeton, W. P.	Wood, B. c. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)	Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Sandeman, A. Stewart	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Tinne, J. A.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sanderson, Sir Frank	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Savery, S. S.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)	Ward, Col. J. (Stoke upon Trent)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Skelton, A. N.	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)	Commander B. Eyres Monsell and
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dina, C.)	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.	Colonel Gibbs.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)	Groves, T.	Owen, Major G.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Grundy, T. W.	Ponsonby, Arthur
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Potts, John S.
Baker, Walter	Hall. F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Riley, Ben
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Barnes, A.	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)
Barr, J	Hardie, George D.	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Batey, Joseph	Harney. E. A.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Harris, Percy A.	Scrymgeour, E.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Scurr, John
Briant, Frank	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Broad, F. A.	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hirst, G. H.	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Cape, Thomas	Hirst. W, (Bradford, South)	Smillie, Robert
Charleton, H. C.	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Cluse, W. S.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.	Jenkins. W, (Glamorgan, Neath)	Sneil, Harry
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cove, W. G.	Kelly, W. T.	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Cowan, D M. (Scottish Universities)	Kennedy, T.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Crawfurd, H. E.	Lansbury, George	Thurtle, E.
Dalton, Hugh	Lawson, John James	Townend, A. E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lee, F.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Lindley, F. W.	Viant, S. P.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Livingstone, A. M.	Wallhead, Richard C.
Dennison, R.	Lowth, T.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duncan, C.	Lunn, William	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Macdonald. Sir Murdoch (Inverness)	Westwood, J.
Fenby, T. D.	Mackinder, W.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Wilson. C H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Gibbins, Joseph	Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.	Windsor. Walter
Gillett, George M.	March, S.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)	Marriott. Sir J. A. R.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Greenall, T.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes.
Greenwood, A.(Nelson and coins)

975

Division No384.]	AYES	[4.36 p.m
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Riley. Ben
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hardie, George D.	Scrymgeour, E.
Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston)	Harney, E. A.	Scurr, John
Baker, Walter	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hayes, John Henry	Smillie Robert
Barr, J.	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Smith Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Batey, Joseph	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Briant, Frank	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Snell. Harry
Broad, F. A.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Cape, Thomas	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Charleton, H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Thurtle, E.
Cluse, W. s.	Kennedy, T.	Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G.	Lansbury, George	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P,
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lawson, John James	Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh	Lee, F.	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lindley, F. W.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Lowth, T.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry	Lunn, William	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, R.	MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Duncan, C.	Mackinder, W.	Weir, L. M.
Gibbins, Joseph	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M.	March, S.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Greenall, T.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred	Windsor, Walter
Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Owen, Major G.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES —
Groves, T.	Ponsonby, Arthur	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Grundy, T. W.	Potts, John S.	Barnes.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)

NOES
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Everard, W. Lindsay
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Albery, Irving James	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Fanshawe, Commander G.D
Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Fenby, T. D
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Fielden, E. B.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W	Christie, J. A.	Finburgh, S.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer	Fleming, D. P.
Atholl, Duchess of	Clarry, Reginald George	Forrest, W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Clayton, G. C.	Foster, Sir Harry S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Fraser, Captain Ian
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Frece, Sir Walter de
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Cookerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Galbraith, J. F. W.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	Ganzoni, Sir John
Benn, Sir A. S (Plymouth, Drake)	Conway, Sir W. Martin	Gates, Percy
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Cope, Major William	Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Berry, Sir George	Couper, J. B.	Gee, Captain R.
Betterton, Henry B	Courtauld Major J S	Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.C.(Antrim)	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Ht. Hon. Sir John
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Carig, Earnest (Chester, Crewe)	Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Craik Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Gower, Sir Robert
Brass, Captain W.	Cunliffe-Joseph Herbert	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Curtis-Bennett Sir Henry	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Curzon, captain Viscount.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Briscoe, Richard George	Curzon Captain Viscount	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hammersley S. S.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C R. I.	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Harland A
Broun Lindsay, Major H.	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Brown. Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Harris Percy A.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Harrison G. J. C.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)	Harvey Major S.E (Devon, Totness)
Bullock, Captain M.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Haslam Henry C.
Burman, J. B.	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan	Hawke, John Anthony
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Drewe, C.	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Caine, Gordon Hall	Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Campbell, E. T.	Elveden, Viscount	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Herbert, S.(York N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Hilton, Cecil

974 975

Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Marriott, Sir J. A. H.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Meller, R. J.	Savery, S. S.
Holland, Sir Arthur	Meyer, Sir Frank	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Holt, Captain H. P.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Homan, C. W. J.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Skelton, A. N.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Moles, Thomas	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Smithers, Waldron
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Moore, Sir Newton J.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hurd, Percy A.	Morden, Col. W. Grant	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hurst, Gerald B.	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Murchison, C. K.	steel, Major Samuel Strang
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Jacob, A. E.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Jephcott, A. R.	Nuttall, Ellis	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Oakley, T.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Pease, William Edwin	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Penny, Frederick George	Templeton, W. P.
Knox, Sir Alfred	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Lamb, J. O.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Tinne, J. A.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Leigh, sir John (Clapham)	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Lister Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Pielou, D. P.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Little, Dr. E. Graham	Pilcher, G.	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Pilditch. Sir Philip	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Locker-Lampson, Com., O (Handsw'th)	Power, Sir John Cecil	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Loder, J. de V.	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Looker, Herbert William	Preston, William	Wells, S. R.
Lowe, Sir Francis William	Ramsden, E.	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Rawson, Alfred Cooper	Wiggins, William Martin
Lumley, L. R.	Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Lynn, Sir R. J.	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Remer, J. R.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)	Remnant. Sir James	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Rice, Sir Frederick	Wolmer, Viscount
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Womersley, W. J.
Macintyre, Ian	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)	Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
McLean, Major A.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Macmillan, Captain H.	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Rye, F. G.	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Macquisten, F. A.	Sandeman, A. Stewart	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Malone, Major P. B.	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Margesson.
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

§ Mr. ATTLEE
I beg to move, That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendment to Clause 51, standing on the Notice Paper in the names of the lion. Members for Limehouse and Abertillery, as an Amendment to be moved on re-committal. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentle-man will not misunderstand the reason why this Instruction is being moved. He knows how often in Committee we saved him from his friends, and particularly from the Noble Lord the Member for Western Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington), who moved the last Motion, and our desire to recommit the Bill is on the specific point of the payment of dequate personal expenses and payment for the loss of time to members of assessment committees. In this Bill, an endeavour is being made to set up larger authorities than previously existed in rating, and experience has shown that on larger 976 authorities, where members have to come some distance to serve, some payment for out-of-pocket expenses and for lost time is absolutely necessary, if we are to have a proper representation of the ratepayers and the people interested. On the work of assessment committees, necessarily, there must be meetings in the day time, necessarily a large amount of time must be taken up, and it simply means that, unless payment be made, the only people who can attend and do the work are persons belonging to one or two rather narrow categories, either people unemployed voluntarily or compulsorily, or people whose particular business allows them time off. In many districts you will find that the only people who get on to these committees will be, possibly, some shopkeepers, and certainly, in my experience, licensed victuallers. It is undesirable that only those in a very few categories should get on these com- 977 mittees. In these days no one wishes, I believe, to keep local government bodies restricted to particular classes. It is most desirable that all classes should be represented, but unless some provision of this sort be made, it means that in a vast number of areas the committee dealing with this most important work will be entirely restricted to certain leisured or moneyed classes.
This Amendment is put forward, because it is impossible, under the Rules of the House, to move it in the ordinary way on the Report stage, but the matter is of such importance that I do think the Bill should be recommitted on this particular point. One still finds up and down the country a few people who consider that all payment of members of public bodies is absolutely wrong, but I find their number is growing less and less. During the past few weeks I have met a number of enlightened local administrators belonging to the Party opposite who confessed that they had always held previously that any payment was wrong, but who had now become converted. I think we want to recognise that in these days, with the change from the small authority, such as the parish, to the setting up of the larger authorities, and even super-authorities, as in the case of electricity supply, and, as you are going to get here, your county valuation committees, it is asking too much of a man to take his whole day away, and give no compensation whatsoever.
I think the work that is being done on behalf of the public should be paid for properly, and I do not think there is anything outrageous to offend anyone's political belief in the proposal that we make here. It is bringing in a principle already recognised in our large public bodies. In the London area it is recognised in such bodies as the Water Board, the Lee Conservancy Board and others. Outside London, in many of the larger authorities, the payment of reasonable personal expenses is recognised and approved. Anyone who has studied this Bill must realise that we are now going to set up certain committees over large areas. It is a great change, because it is applied particularly to the rural areas. It is not quite so difficult in large towns for the members to reach these committees, but when you have them brought from widely scattered rural areas where 978 the travelling facilities, possibly, are not very good, where you are going to ask them to sit, possibly, day after day on this business, it is absolutely necessary that this payment should be provided under the Bill. I regret it was not inserted in Committee, but I want the House to recognise that local administration is of very great importance. I hope we shall have the support of the democrats on the other side, of whom we hear quite a lot nowadays, whose desire is that everybody who is fit should be allowed to take part in public administration, national and local, and who do not wish to keep this work of valuation and assessment the private preserve of a certain elected class.

§ Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
The Amendment which has been the subject of the hon. Member's speech was discussed in Committee upstairs, and it was defeated by 25 votes to nine. I do not propose to take up very much time over it now, because the answer is a very simple one. The hon. Member, although he is endeavouring to apply the Amendment, to one particular Clause of the Bill, made his speech as though he were applying it to all forms of local government, and it is quite impossible, once you introduce a new principle of this kind into local government, to confine it to the particular instance to which it would apply if the Amendment were carried, namely, conferences called by county valuation committees and attended by the members of assessment committees. There may be a great deal to be said on the one side or the other of the question as to whether members of local authorities should receive, in addition to their travelling and subsistence allowances, which are given them by this particular Clause, personal expenses and compensation for loss of time. I say there may be a discussion on the one side or the other on that point, but, obviously, it is a point which should be raised as a point of principle, and made applicable to all forms of local government, if it is to be introduced at all, and not brought in, as it were, by a side wind, and made to apply to a very limited and narrow range of cases, as is contemplated by this particular Amendment.

§ Question put, That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendment to Clause 54, standing on the Notice Paper in the names of the hon. 979 Members for Limehouse and Abertillery, as an Amendment to be moved on recommittal.

980

§ The House divided, Ayes, 111, Noes, 272.

981

Division No. 385]	AYES	[4.55p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)	Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Ponsonby, Arthur
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Potts, John S.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro)	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Riley, Ben
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)	Hardie, George D.	Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)
Baker, Walter	Harney, E. A.	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Harris, Percy A.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Barnes, A.	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Scrymgeour, E
Barr, J.	Hayes, John Henry	Scurr, John
Batey, Joseph	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smillie, Robert
Benn, Captain Wedgwood(Leith)	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Briant, Frank	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Broad, F. A.	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snell, Harry
Buchanan, G.	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cape, Thomas	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Charleton, H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Cluse, W. S.	Kennedy, T.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Thurtle, E.
Cove, W. G.	Lansbury, George	Townead, A. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lawson, John James	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Crawfurd, H E.	Lee, F.	Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh	Lindley, F. W.	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Livingstone, A. M.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	Lowth, T.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry	Lunn, William	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, R.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Duncan, C.	Mackinder, W.	Weir, L. M
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Westwood, J.
Fenby, T. D.	Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gibbins, Joseph	March, S.	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Gillett, George M.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Windsor, Walter
Greenall, T.	Montague, Frederick	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Oliver, George Harold	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Owen, Major G.	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Groves, T.	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Frederick Hall.
Grundy, T. W.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Buckingham, Sir H.	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Agg-Gardner. Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Dalkeith, Earl of
Albery, Irving James	Bullock, Captain M.	Dalziel, Sir Davison
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Burman, J. B.	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Apsley, Lord	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Campbell, E. T.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Atholl, Duchess of	Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Drewe, C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Edmondson, Major A. J.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)
Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Elveden, Viscount
Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Christie, J. A.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston, s. M.)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer	Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Clarry, Reginald George	Everard, W. Lindsay
Berry, Sir George	Clayton, G. C.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Betterton, Henry B.	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W, R., Skipton)	Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Cohen, Major J. Brunei	Finburgh, S.
Blades, Sir George Rowland	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Fleming, D. P.
Blundell. F. N.	Conway, Sir W. Martin	Foster, Sir Harry S.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cooper, A. Duff	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Cope, Major William	Fraser, Captain Ian
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.	Couper, J. B.	Frece, Sir Walter de
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Brass, Captain W.	Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Brassey, Sir Leonard	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Galbraith, J. F. W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Ganzoni, Sir John
Briscoe, Richard George	Crook, C. W.	Gates, Percy
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Gee, Captain R.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Macdonald, Ft. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Gower, Sir Robert	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Grace, John	Macintyre, Ian	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Grant, J. A.	McLean, Major A.	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Grotrian, H. Brent	Macmillan, Captain H.	Sandon, Lord
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Savery, S. S.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Macquisten, F. A.	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Hammersley, S. S.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Harland, A.	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Skelton, A. N.
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Meller, R. J.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Hartington, Marquess of	Meyer, Sir Frank	Smithers, Waldron
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Haslam, Henry C.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hawke, John Anthony	Moles, Thomas	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Moore, Sir Newton J.	Storry Deans, R.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Morden, Colonel Walter Grant	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Herbert, S.(York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hilton, Cecil	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Sallsbury)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Murchison, C. K.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Holland, Sir Arthur	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Holt, Captain H. P.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Templeton, W. P.
Homan, C. W. J.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Nuttall, Ellis	Tinne, J. A.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Oakley, T.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hurd, Percy A.	Pease, William Edwin	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hurst, Gerald B.	Penny, Frederick George	Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Perring, William George	Wells, S. R.
Jacob, A. E.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Jephcott, A. R.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Pielou, D. P.	Wiggins, William Martin
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Pilcher, G.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Knox. Sir Alfred	Pilditch, Sir Philip	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Lamb. J. Q.	Power, Sir John Cecil	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.	Preston, William	Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Ramsden, E.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Rawson, Alfred Cooper	Wolmer, Viscount
Little, Dr. E. Graham	Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Womersley, W. J.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Remer, J. R.	Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hythe)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)	Remnant, sir James	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Loder J. de V.	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Looker, Herbert William	Rice, Sir Frederick	Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Lowe, Sir Francis William	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D, T.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Lumley, L. R.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES,—
Lynn, Sir Robert J.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Captain Hacking and Captain
MacAndrew, Charles Glen	Rye, F. G.	Margesson.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

§ Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

§ NEW CLAUSE.—(Exemption of underground sewers from rating.)

§ No sewer vested in a local authority which is situate below the surface of the ground shall be assessed to any rate for the time being levied in the parish, district, borough, metropolitan borough, county, or other area in which such sewer, or part thereof, is situate, and no rate shall be payable in respect of such sewer or such part thereof.—[Mr. Barker.]

§ Brought up, and read the First time.

§ Mr. BARKER
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I very much regret to have to move this new Clause. The Minister of Health 982 is putting forward a Bill to rate sewers. This seems to me to be extraordinary and preposterous in the extreme, when it is considered that sewers contribute so much to the health of the nation, and it would be difficult to find anything that does more so. It seems to me a very extraordinary thins that the Minister, having charge of the Health Department, should bring in a Rating Bill at this time of the Session to rate sewers. Every local authority which wishes to avoid its duty and allows the sewage to pollute its rivers and streams, would escape a very big financial obligation under this Bill. This Bill, as a matter of fact, is n premium on bad sanitation. Personally, I regret that it is necessary for a Mem- 983 ber of the Opposition to ask leave to bring in a Clause like this. The other day there was a parody made on a well-known quotation to the effect that English people have an unfortunate capacity for making drains. If that be so, I do not see why the Minister of Health should try to suppress such a laudable ambition as that by rating these very necessary measures for the promotion of the health of the people.
Sewers are very costly things. They are not revenue-producing agents. They are laid down and constructed for the promotion of health, and not for the production of revenue. In the area which I have the honour to represent, the Monmouthshire Western Valleys Sewerage Board, in 1903–6–9, promoted three Acts of Parliament to enable them to construct sewers to cleanse and purify the river-bed of the Ebbw and its tributaries. These sewers were formed at an enormous expense. They, indeed, cost upward of £400,000. The charge per annum to the Western Valleys Sewerage Board is not less than £2,300. The rating is £2,800; that is, £500 in excess of the cost of laying the sewers. In the Rhymney Valley area there has been expended £750,000 on the sewers. Owing to the War, the cost of these works have been doubled. The rates paid on these sewers in the Rhymney area amount to over £3,000 per annum.
These sewers, as I have intimated, have been constructed for the promotion of health, and not for the production of wealth. I have with me some very remarkable statistics. I should like to lay some of them before the House. In 1904 the death rate was 17.81 per 1,000 in the Western Valleys of Monmouthshire. In 1925 that death rate had been reduced to 9.35 per 1,000. I do not claim that the whole of the reduction is due to the operations of the sewers. There is no doubt, however, that the cleansing of the area has had a great deal to do with the reduction in the death rate. To make such improvements in the two areas I have mentioned, over £1,000,000 have been spent and £100,000 have been paid in rates by the people who live in the area. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Minister should oppose this Clause. He did not oppose it in Committee. I hope he will not oppose it in 984 the House. As a matter of fact, I do not think any censure cast upon the right hon. Gentleman could be comparable to the censure that this Clause has had to be moved from this side of the House instead of from the opposite side. This Clause ought to have been in the original Bill. It ought not to have been necessary for the Opposition to urge upon the Minister of Health not to tax one of the greatest health-promoting agencies that we have. I have sometimes heard the right hon. Gentleman called bad names. I am not going to repeat any of them. I do not say whether or not he deserves them. Sewers are necessary for the promotion of the national health, and this particular Clause Which I am putting forward has got strong and influential support outside the House. There have been some powerful deputations to this House waiting upon Members and urging them to vote for this Clause.

§ Mr. JENKINS
I beg formally to second the Motion.

§ Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
In putting forward his proposed new Clause the hon. Gentleman the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Barker) described the proposal in the Bill to rate sewers as extraordinary and preposterous.

§ Mr. BARKER
Hear, hear!

§ Mr. CHAMBERLAIN
He has said nothing about sewers above ground. Does he suggest that sewers above ground are not as valuable to health as those underground? Why does he distinguish in the case of a particular kind of sewer? Might I remind him, too, that he brought forward by way of illustration a sewer that runs partly above ground and partly underground. However, the fact remains that the question of rating sewers is inappropriate to a Bill of this kind which deals only with the machinery, and not with the principle of rating. I do not mean to say that I have not, perhaps, some sympathy with the proposal which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. When a deputation from South Wales came to see me on this subject I think I showed considerable sympathy with them, and told them that whilst I could not possibly insert a Clause of this kind in the Bill I did think it was a matter for investigation, and probably legislation. I told them I should give the thing my serious consideration with a view, if possible, to 985 deal with it when the proper opportunity arose. It is necessary, however, to investigate the matter, taking into account the question of overhead as well as underground sewers.
There are other constructions which are as necessary for the health of the people as sewers, which pass through the area of a number of local authorities, and by whom the question of rating might usefully be considered. Take the case of a town which obtains a water supply from a source many miles distant. The pipes may pass through a number of localities. The water in the pipes may be not merely bringing no profit to the authority which consumes it, but may actually lead to a heavy charge upon the rates of that authority. Therefore, I do not think I can consider the question of rating sewers without considering, also, the rating of other structures of that kind. I cannot give any guarantee at this moment as to future legislation, but I can say what I said to the South Wales deputation, that I am hoping that I may be able, in the course of next year, to introduce a Bill amending the Public Health Acts, and that if I do that might be a suitable occasion for dealing with this question, and that I will undertake that the matter shall be taken into consideration before I promote that Bill. That is as far as I can go to-day; but I think the hon. Member will realise that it is not an unreasonable reply to his Motion, and I hope he will not feel it necessary to press it.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD
The right hon. Gentleman has said that he told a South Wales deputation that he was quite incapable of introducing a Clause of this kind into a Bill of this character. I have a greater belief in the right hon. Gentleman's capabilities than he has himself. I should like very much to discover why a Clause exempting underground sewers from rating cannot be introduced into the Bill, while a Clause exempting certain classes of machinery, above ground, can be put into the Bill? No one exceeds me in the desire to see the unrating of machinery, but I am bound to say I could make out an infinitely stronger case for unrating underground sewers. The manufacturer profits, in the first instance, by the unrating of his machinery; whereas the only persons who profit by the unrating of sewers are the inhabitants of 986 unfortunate colliery villages—and other places as well, for it is not merely colliery villages in South Wales that are affected by this—those congested areas where unemployment is rampant, which are saddled with enormous charges for rates levied upon their sewers by other authorities lower down the valley.
In the one case we are benefiting private enterprise; therefore we exempt machinery. By exempting sewers from rating we should be benefiting local authorities, and particularly hard-pressed local authorities; and therefore the Government have the assurance to tell these local authorities that they are quite incapable of introducing a Clause like this into a Bill of this character. I understand the Government will leave the question of the rating of machinery to a free vote of the House. Could not they also leave the question of the unrating of sewers to a free vote of the House? Then people would be able to record in the Division Lobbies whether they thought it more desirable to take the rates off absolute essentials for health instead of off machinery. I can tell the House, particularly these benches, that the Government will not take off the Whips on such a Division; and in spite of the protestations of the right hon. Gentleman that in some happy future time he will see that this reform is undertaken, it will not be done, because these rates go to the agricultural areas. They profit by the rating of sewers, whether overground or underground, and the right hon. Gentleman being, as he has shown himself over and over again on this Bill, entirely in the hands of the Land Union, it ought to be obvious to everybody that he will never make any change is our system of rating which will touch the pockets of the rural landlords.
I despair of getting a free vote on this question, but I do not despair of showing the country the irrational character of the right hon. Gentleman's behaviour over this Bill. Rates off machinery; quite right! Reduce the burden upon industry, enable industry to carry on. to produce at cheaper prices, to encourage our export trade—that is sound. But is not the case for sewers far stronger? Encourage your export trade. [Laughter.] Hon. Members Laugh, but they have no experience of living in slums. [HON. MEMBERS: "Have you?"] Yes, I have seen many 987 of them in my time. I am really amused at the extraordinary levity with which the House treats the question of the drainage of working men's houses. Even if hon. Members opposite look at this question simply from the point of view of pounds, shillings and pence, a dividend in the terms of the health of the people and a reduction of the death rate is as important;, if not more important, than the increase in our export trade we hope to get from the exemption of machinery from rates. For all these reasons I would ask every hon. Member who really can put party aside and think of this question from the public point of view to go into the Lobby with us on this occasion and register one vote for a sound policy, as opposed to the

988

§ preservation of disease and the benefiting of those agricultural areas which profit by the present system of rating sewers.

§ Mr. LOOKER
In view of my right hon..Friend's explanation of the reasons why he cannot accept this Clause, and of what I regard as a very satisfactory assurance that the point will be considered, and an opportunity be found in a future Bill of giving effect to the Amendment desired, I very much hope the Mover and Seconder will see their way to withdraw it.

§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

§ The House divided: Ayes. 115: Noes, 276.

989

Division No. 386]	AYES	[5.22p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)	Guest, Or. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)	Ritson, J.
Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock)	Hall, G. H.(Methyr Tydil)	Robertson. J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)
Attlee, Clement Richard	Hardie George D	Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baker, J, (Wolverhampton, Bilston)	Harney, E. A.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter	Harris Percy A.	Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon	Scurr, John
Barnes, A.	Haves John Henry	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Barr, j.	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Smillie, Robert
Batey, Joseph	Henderson. T. (Glasgow)	Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)	Hirst, G. H.	Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hirst, W. (Bradford South)	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Briant, Frank	Hore-Belisha, Leslie	Snell, Harry
Broad, F. A.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jenkins, W. (Glamoroan, Neath)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Buchanan, G.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Cape, Thomas	Kelly W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.	Kennedy, T.	Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Cluse, W. S.	Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.	Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)	Lansbury George	Thurtle, E.
Cove, W. G.	Lawson, john James	Townend, A. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)	Lee, F.	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Crawfurd, H. E.	Lindley, F. W.	Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, Hugh	Lowth, T.	Viant, S. P.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vate)	Lunn, William	Wallhead, Richard C.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Day, Colonel Harry	Mackinder, W.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Dennison, R.	Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duncan, C.	March, S.	Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Dunnico, H.	Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)	Weir, L. M.
Fenby, T. D.	Montaque, Frederick	Westwood, J.
Gibbins, Joseph	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Wiggins, William Martin
Gillett, George M.	Naylor, T. E.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Greenall, T.	Oliver, George Harold	Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Owen, Major G.	Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Ponsonby, Arthur
Groves, T.	Potts, John S.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grundy, T. W.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)	Riley, Ben	Frederick Hall.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Blades, Sir George Rowland
Albery, Irving James	Barnett, Major Sir Richard	Blundell, F. N.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)	Barnston, Major Sir Harry	Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Beamish, Captain T. P. H.	Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.	Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)	Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Apsley, Lord	Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Berry, Sir George	Brass, Captain W.
Atholl, Duchess of	Betterton, Henry B.	Brassey, Sir Leonard
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Briscoe, Richard George	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.	O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Penny, Frederick George
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Brown, Brig-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Hammersley, S. S.	Perring, William George
Buckingham, Sir H.	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James	Harland, A.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Bullock, Captain M.	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Pielou, D. P.
Burman, J. B.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Pilcher, G.
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.	Hartington, Marquess of	Pilditch, Sir Philip
Butler, Sir Geoffrey	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Power, Sir John Cecil
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Campbell, E. T.	Haslam, Henry C.	Preston, William
Cautley, Sir Henry S.	Hawke, John Anthony	Ramsden, E.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)	Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.	Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Cecil. Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.	Remer. j. R.
Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Honn, Sir Sydney H.	Remnant, Sir James
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hennessy, Major J. R. G.	Rentoul, G. S.
Christie, J. A.	Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar, & Wh'by)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Churchill, Ht. Hon. Winston Spencer	Hilton, Cecil	Rice, Sir Frederick
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Clarry, Reginald George	Holland, Sir Arthur	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Clayton, G. C.	Holt, Capt. H. P.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Homan, C. W. J.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)	Rye, F. G.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Hurd, Percy A.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Cooper, A. Duff	Hurst, Gerald B.	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Couper, J. B.	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Sandon, Lord
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C.(Antrim)	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Savery, S.S.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Jacob. A. E.	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Jephcott, A. R.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Crook, C. W.	Kennedy, A. R.(Preston).	Skelton, A. N.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Smith R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, c)
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)	Knox, sir Alfred	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert	Lamb, J.Q	Smithers, Waldron
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Dalkeith, Earl of	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)	Sprot, Sir Alexander
Dalziel, Sir Davison	Lister Cunliffe., Rt. Hon. Sir Philip	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Davidson, J.(Hertfd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Loder, J. De V	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)	Looker, Herbert William	Storry Deans, R.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, 8.)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Stott Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere	Stuart Crichton-, Lord C.
Doyle. Sir N. Grattan	Lumley, L. R.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Drewe C.	Lynn, sir R. J.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Edmondson, Major A. J.	MacAndrew Charles Glen	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)	Skyes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)	Templeton, W. P.
Elveden, Viscount.	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Macintyre, Ian	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith	McLean, Major A.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Macmillan, Captain H.	Tinne, J. A.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Tryon, Rt. HON George Clement
Everard, W. Lindsay	McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Macguisten, F. A.	Wallace, Captain D. E.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel	Ward, Lt -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Warner. Brigadier-General W. W.
Fielden, E. B.	Margesson, Captain D.	Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Finburgh, S.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Fleming, D. P.	Meller, R. J.	Wells S. R.
Foster, Sir Harry S.	Meyer, Sir Frank	Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Milne, J. S. Wardlaw	White. Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Fraser, Captain Ian	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Frece, Sir Walter de	Mitchell, sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Winsby, Colonel L. P.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Moles, Thomas	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)	Wise Sir Fredric
Ganzoni, Sir John	Moore. Sir Newton J.	Wolmer, Viscount
Gates, Percy	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Womersley, W. J.
Gault, Lieut.-Cot. Andrew Hamilton	Morden, Col. W. Grant	wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Gee. Captain R.	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Wood, E.(Chest'r Stalyb'ge & Hythe)
Gibbs, Co,. Rt. Hon. George Abraham	Morrison, H (Wilts, Salisbury)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John	Murchison, C. K.	Woodcock, Colonel H.S
Glyn, Major R. G. C.	Newman Sir R. H. S. D. L (Exeter)	Worthington-Evans, Rt.. Hon. Sir L.
Gower, Sir Robert	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D.T.
Grace, John	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Grant, J. A.	Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gretton. Colonel John	Nuttall, Ellis	Major Cope and Captain Viscount
Grotrian, H. Brent	Oakley, T.	Curzon.