I beg to move, in page 8, line 20, to leave out from the word "issued" to the word "Expendi- 1098 ture" in line 23, and to insert instead thereof the wordsby guardians in respect of any period beginning on or after the appointed day, and by councils of counties in respect of any period beginning on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine.The effect of the Amendment is to make a distinction between the time at which the precept reform is to come into operation as regards one kind of precepting authority—the guardians—and another kind, the County Councils. The guardians precepting reform is to come into operation on the appointed day provided in the Bill but the County Councils say that as far as they are concerned the change should not take place until the new valuations are completed, that is, not until 1929. The reason for that is that there is a considerable want of uniformity as between one union and another. Hitherto the County Councils have relied on a certain basis for securing uniformity as regards their precepts, but as that is swept away they do not want to issue precepts on parochial valuations, and they desire to wait until there is some sort of uniformity throughout the area before the change takes place.
§ Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 8, line 36, after the word "being," to insert the words(subject in the case of a rating area not being a rural district to such adjustment as is hereinafter provided).This is one of a series of Amendments all relating to the same thing. The matter is rather technical, and I do not want to take up time in explaining it. unless I am desired to do so. If hon. Members will look at the Clause, they will see that Sub-section (4, a) reads:(4) Rules made for the purposes of this Section—(a) shall, for the purpose of securing that the basis on which the produce of a rate is to be estimated and any sums duo under a precept are to be ascertained shall be the same for urban rating areas and for rural rating areas, provide that no account shall be taken of any relief under Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act which operates only in county boroughs or urban districts;The object of the Amendment is to put into the Bill itself what was originally proposed to be provided for by rules.
§ Amendment agreed to1099
§ Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 1, at the beginning, insert the words "Subject to the provisions of this section";
§ In lines 4 and 5, leave out the words "subject to the provisions of this section."— [Mr. Chamberlain.]
I beg to move, in page 9, line 8, at the end, to insert the words:Provided that for the purpose of securing that the basis on which the sums due under the precept are to be ascertained shall be the same for rating areas which are rural districts and rating areas which are not rural districts, the amount due under a precept shall, in the case of a rating area not being a rural district, include a sum equal to that by which the produce of the rate would be increased if such of the reliefs given by Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act as operate only in rating areas not being rural districts were not so given, and the precept shall require the rating authority to make provision accordingly for any such additional sum by increasing as may be necessary the amount in the pound of the rate which is required by the precept to be levied.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
I should just like to ask whether the actual detailed wording, which is highly technical, has been agreed upon with the rating authorities and whether it will now be not a rule but a statutory power?
§ Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in page 9, line 9, after the word "counties," to insert the word "and."
The next two Amendments go together and are of a different character. It will be seen that in line 10 on page 9 occur the words "and the said receiver", that is, the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police District. I am proposing at a later stage to leave London outside the Bill altogether, and therefore this section, in view of that change, will be superfluous; but if at some future time London desires to come into the provisions of the Bill then it will be necessary to amend this Clause again by inserting the words.
§ Mr. WEBB
The London which the right hon. Gentleman is going to leave out of the Bill is, I imagine, the London. County Council London. Has the right 1100 hon. Gentleman considered that the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police District issues his precept upon local authorities outside the London County Council London, as the police area extends far beyond the London County Council London? I imagine that this must have been thought about. I just raise the point in order that it may not be overlooked.
I am afraid I cannot answer that at the moment. I will look into it and make quite certain that it is all right.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: In page 9, line 10, leave out the words "and the said receiver."
§ In line 13, leave out from the word "in," to the word "year," in line 15, and insert instead thereof the word "each."
§ In lines 17 and 18, leave out the words "and to the said receiver, if he has such a power."
In page 9, line 23, after the word "be" insert the words
if provision were not made by the said Part II of the Second Schedule for any such relief as aforesaid which operates only in a rating area, not being a rural district.
In page 9, line 26, after the word "would" insert the word "produce."
§ In page 9, lines 27 and 28, leave out the words "produce if levied in that year."— [Mr. Chamberlain.]
§ Sir D. NEWTON
I bee to move, in page 9, line 28, at the end, to insert the words:Provided that where a rating authority fails to transmit an estimate to any precepting authority in accordance with the foregoing" provisions the precepting authority may for the purposes of this Section make an estimate in lieu of the rating authority.This Amendment has been put down at the request of the County Councils Association. It will be clear to the House that if this Amendment is not made, serious inconvenience will be caused to the precepting authorities if any of the rating authorities fail to transmit punctually the necessary information required to make up the precepts. It is therefore felt desirable that the precepting authorities should have 1101 power to make an estimate in the absence of this information.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
I am surprised that we have not had more explanation of this Amendment. There is far more in this Amendment taken with subsequent Amendments on the Paper, than might appear at first, and I do not think we are justified in disposing of them summarily. I gather from a subsequent Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) that the rating authority will be required to pay interest at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum on the amounts due under precepts which they have not made over to the precepting authorities on the date specified in the demand. That proposal may have serious consequences to ratepayers in a particular section of a rating area. There are all kinds of reasons for an authority being unable at certain times to meet precepts. I daresay the Mover considers that the County Council will act reasonably in operating this provision, but in poor areas there are many authorities who, having received the precept, would be actually unable to raise the money even though they agreed to levy the required rate. I take it from this Amendment and subsequent Amendments that we are to have not merely this 6 per cent. charge on the very areas which are poor and unable to meet the rate in full, but that—
§ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)
This is not a question of levying a charge but merely a question of making an estimate.
§ Sir D. NEWTON
I have every intention of making the point raised by the hon. Member perfectly clear when we reach the Amendment which deals with it.
Will the Minister, for the convenience of hon. Members, arrange before the next sitting of the House to put his own name to the Amendments which he intends to accept?
§ Amendment agreed to.1102
§ Sir D. NEWTON
I beg to move, in page 9, line 42, at the end, to insert the words:and an estimate nifty be revised under Sub-section (3) of the said Section before the expiration, instead of at the expiration, of the first six months of the financial year.12 M.
This also has been put down on behalf of the County Councils Association, and it is really a drafting Amendment. Under Section 75 of the Local Government Act, 1888, certain obligations were imposed upon county councils with regard to the dates which they were to make up their financial year and with regard to the framing of their budget. That conflicted with some of the provisions of this Bill, and, so far as the spring budget was concerned, the necessary alterations were made and the necessary powers were given to the county councils to deal with the situation, but similar powers were not put in for the second half of the year, and it is to meet that difficulty that this Amendment has been framed.
§ Captain BOURNE
I beg to second the Amendment. The House will perhaps realise that up till now the county councils have made their own estimates of the rateable value of any given locality, and they have obtained their budgets under those estimates. Under this Bill the county councils will levy their precepts on a different basis, and if they are to keep their finances in order, it is necessary for them to have the earliest information of any changes in the assessable values.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir D. NEWTON
I beg to move, in page 10, line 9, at the end, to insert the words:Where the amount due under a precept, or any part of that amount, is not paid on or before the date specified in the precept for payment, the authority by which the precept was issued may, if they think fit, require the rating authority to pay, in accordance with the following provisions, interest on that amount, or that part of the amount, and any interest,so payable shall be paid by the rating authority to the authority by which the precept was issued in like manner as if it were due Tinder the precept;For the purpose of the foregoing provision interest shall be calculated at the rate of six per cent. per annum and shall commence to run from the date of payment specified in the precept, except that no interest shall be charged in respect of any day before the expiration of six weeks from 1103 the commencement of the financial year or financial half-year, as the case may be, in respect of which the precept was issued, or in respect of any day on which the aggregate amount of any payments made under the precept is equal to or exceeds the sum which bears to the aggregate amount of the instalments required by the precept the same proportion as the number of days which have elapsed since the commencement of the said financial year or half-year, as the case may be, bears to the total number of days contained in that year or half-year.This Amendment is acceptable to both the County Councils Association and the Municipal Corporations Association. It is within the knowledge of this House that there is sometimes dilatoriness in meeting county precepts, and at present, under the existing rating provisions, 10 per cent. can be charged upon an overdue account, by the County Rates Act, 1852. The proposal in this Amendment allows for six per cent. instead of 10 per cent. In addition to that, under the existing law overseers can be distrained upon and their goods sold up. It is clear, I think, that further powers are wanted to meet the new situation which will arise under this Bill. It is not of much use to distrain upon a steam roller or the office furniture of a corporate body, and, therefore, it seems not unreasonable that the proposal made in this Amendment in regard to 6 per cent. should be incorporated in the Bill.
§ Captain BOURNE
I beg to second the Amendment. I wish to say that the Amendment is one to which those responsible for county finances attach great importance. I do not think the power given under the Act of 1852 has often been put into execution, but the mere fact that the power is there is an indication that Parliament at that time thought it necessary in the case of recalcitrant authorities, and I feel that the county councils, which have very important duties to discharge, should have some redress in the case of local authorities who will not pay up.
§ Mr. LANSBURY
I hope the Government are not going to accept this Amendment. Anyone who has had anything to do with poor districts knows that very often it is impossible for them to pay the money due out of their funds, and it is impossible for them to do what a larger authority can do, and that is to keep a balance to tide them over. I know that in London many of the borough councils 1104 and boards of guardians are obliged to hold up cheques for the London County Council that are payable at a certain date, and, except for the accommodation that they get from the County Council and the Metropolitan Asylums Board, they would not be able to carry on at all. Now you are proposing that, because they are poor, they are to be treated just as if they were debtors to some moneylender and to pay at the rate of 6 per cent. The hon. and gallant Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) said that the county councils would be unable to get the money from recalcitrant authorities that were not willing to pay. I do not believe that there is any authority in the country that is not willing to pay when it has the money, and putting 6 per cent. on to them makes it even more difficult, but I would like to say that in the case of a truly recalcitrant authority, such as Poplar was a year or two ago, the fact that you put 6 per cent. on would not have made a scrap of difference, because they had made up their minds not to pay, and they knew that the longer they went on not paying the heavier the debt would become, and the more impossible it would be to meet it, so that you do not gain anything by saying that you will add on 6 per cent. It is not the recalcitrant bodies, however, about which I wanted to speak, but those who, as is well known by every town councillor or member of a board of guardians in a poor district, if it were not for the credit they get from the central authority not calling upon them to pay forthwith, would not be able to carry on at all. I think that this is an Amendment of substance, and one which the House ought not to accept, from the point of view of the most poor and heavily stricken areas in the country.
I rather agree that this is an Amendment of some substance, but I think the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) must not be more royalist than the King. As a matter of fact, this Amendment has been examined by the municipal corporations, and they have raised no objection to it, and I think it is obvious why. It is not directed against recalcitrant authorities, but against dilatory authorities.
If the hon. Member will be patient, I am coming to 1105 that. You cannot really leave the county councils without any remedy whatever in the case of authorities which put off making payments that are due. This is not a proposal that, from the moment the amount of the precept becomes due, 6 per cent. is to be paid. The authority is given six weeks' grace in which no interest is to be chargeable at all, and even after that there is to be no interest chargeable so long as the authorities pay in instalments in amount proportionate to the proportion of the period which has elapsed from the date when the rate was levied. Those two provisions, I think, give ample protection to the poor authorities, for which the hon. Member opposite is so much concerned, and, seeing that the authorities themselves are prepared to accept the Amendment, I see no reason to object to it.
§ Mr. J. BECKETT
I have not taken any unnecessary part in the discussions on this Bill, because, although there were many things in it about which some of us have felt nervous, we realised that the Minister was tackling a big job that wanted doing, and we did not want to make it unnecessarily difficult. The Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has accepted, without giving us any previous notice of it, does really seem to involve a very dangerous principle. His explanation has been devoted to showing that it is quite an innocuous little Amendment with no harm in it; in fact it seems to him so blameless and so entirely unlikely to be used, that I wonder at the keenness of the Mover and Seconder, and the Minister who accepted it, in pressing it upon the House. It strikes me as not being an Amendment calculated to ease the administrative machine, but calculated to put almost malicious powers at the disposal of the senior authority. The chief proof of that seems to me to be in the arbitrary fixing of the 6 per cent. Why 6 per cent.? If it is animated solely by a harmless desire to make dilatory councils pay up, why not the ordinary sum which would be necessary in order to borrow the money? The only explanation of that is that the arbitration is not going before an impartial authority, or a Minister responsible to this House, but that the people who have to collect the debt, without any further reference to anybody, without going at all into 1106 arbitration, without having the rights or the wrongs of the matter gone into, will be allowed to impose an arbitrary and very high rate of interest. Quite frankly, it seems to me that in the minds of the people who have put forward this Amendment there must have been some idea to teach the poorer people. If it was merely a desire to expedite business, why not charge the ordinary price of money at the time? I do very seriously urge upon the Minister that this is not a Measure which is likely to help administration. It is not a threat, for no delinquent or dilatory council is likely to be frightened. I hope very much that this will not be a strictly party question, but will be left to the free vote of the House, and that hon. Members on the other side will realise the extraordinary difficulties of the case in any difference of opinion between the two authorities.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
I do not want to repeat what I have said. The urban district authorities are not included in this if it is carried out. But some of us have in mind a number of borough authorities who may be adversely affected by a Clause of this kind; that being so, I think the Minister would have been well-advised before agreeing to accept this Amendment of a private Member, to consult all the people concerned. The other point that I want to make is in relation to the Clause itself. It was not thought previously necessary to include this Clause at all. In these circumstances I hope the Minister will not think it necessary to press the House to accept the Amendment. If he insists upon the Amendment, I hope he will not insist upon the rate of interest. It has been suggested that we should have current bank rate inserted instead of the 6 per cent., but I should have thought that 4 per cent. would have been ample for the purpose which the Mover of this Amendment has in view. Personally, I am opposed to the Amendment altogether, but if the Minister insists upon its acceptance I hope he will agree to a further Amendment limiting the interest to 4 per cent.
These Amendments moved by hon. Gentlemen opposite are being accepted simply to get the Bill through. All we ask is that the Minister should take the House of Commons into some measure of his confidence. These 1107 Amendments are only being accepted by the Minister at the price of retaining the support of his own party.
§ Mr. WEBB
The Amendment contains the phrase "if they think fit." Under those circumstances, will not the council be required by the auditor to get in what money they can, and is it not the fact that they will be compelled by the auditor to make this charge? It will not be sufficient to say "if they think fit," because they have to convince the auditor as to why they do not make the addition to the rates which they can make. It seems to me that in the case of these impecunious rural and urban authorities this Amendment would mean an extra charge on the ratepayers in those areas. I do not think such an Amendment ought to be made at this stage. I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to consider the point in order that we may be able to deal with it on another occasion.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope)
I think this Amendment only deals with money which has to be paid in any case.
§ Sir K. WOOD
Under the Act of 1852 the council can charge 10 per cent., and therefore this Clause is a modification of that.
§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
The ruling of the Chair was that in the case of a Bill coming from the Committee to this House no addition could be made to that particular Bill on the Report stage which would involve an additional charge on the ratepayers. Therefore it is not a question as to what practice existed under another rating measure, but the ruling was that was the practice of the House not to insert a Clause or Amendment on the Report stage which would involve an increased cost on the ratepayers.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
I think that point has been met, and the rest of the Clause deals with money which is due. The council have the power to make the higher charge provided for in this Section of the Clause.
§ Major CRAWFURD
There were one or two Amendments which were ruled out of order, and one of the rulings was that any Amendment which meant the imposition of any local burden could 1108 not be moved on the Report stage. Does this Amendment not mean a new burden on the ratepayers, because the local authority must raise the money required out of the rates?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
I think not. This Amendment deals with the case where the amount due under the precept is not paid, and, therefore, no such question arises. As regards the interest, the local authority has power to charge a higher rate if it likes.
This Clause lays clown the minimum interest at 6 per cent., which, I understand, the local authority are not bound to charge.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The Amendment reads:For the purpose of the foregoing provision interest shall be calculated at the rate of 6 per cent. per annum and shall commence to run from the date of payment specified in the precept.It appears to me that the local authority has power to charge 4 per cent. if it likes.
Is not the position that at present, although they have power to charge up to 10 per cent., they can charge 6 per cent.?
Is not the true construction that under this Clause they need not charge anything at all, but, if they do make a charge, it must be 6 per cent.? Under the old Act they need not charge anything at all, but they could charge 10 per cent.
§ Mr. B. PETO
May I submit that this is not a question at all of imposing a charge, but merely one of machinery for collecting money that is due? Some authority has to make it good, and if the authority that ought to pay the money at the proper time does not do so, the other authorities who receive it would ultimately have to get the money from the ratepayers; it could not come from any other source. Therefore, it is not a question of imposing a charge upon anyone at all, but merely of machinery for collection.
§ Mr. BECKETT
On the point of Order. May I point out to you, Sir, that this Measure is to supersede the previous Act, and that there was nothing in this Bill when it came to the Report stage imposing this charge upon the ratepayer? Now this Amendment is to be added imposing 1109 a fresh charge of, possibly, 6 per cent. upon the ratepayer, and the other Act cannot be quoted because this Measure supersedes it.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
This provision provides machinery, but it does not impose a charge, because under the existing law the county council can demand interest at 10 per cent. This provides machinery for collecting interest at 6 per cent. Clearly it cannot be ruled out as a point of order.
§ Colonel WEDGWOOD
Surely, the whole point of your ruling earlier in the Debate was that, whatever was in the Bill as it came from the Committee— whether it imposed an additional burden on the ratepayer or not— did not matter; but that, if any Amendment were moved which, if it were carried, would impose an additional burden on the ratepayer, that was, not by Standing Order, but by an old Rule of the House, out of order and incapable of being brought before the House on Report. As the Bill stands, no rate of interest is mentioned. If this Amendment had been put in in Committee, no point would have been raised here; but, as the Bill did not mention any particular rate of interest when it left the Committee, and, as the Amendment proposes to insert this rate of interest involving a charge upon the ratepayers, I submit that it is out of order.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
It does not impose a charge. There is no additional burden upon the ratepayer, because under the existing law a county council can charge 10 per cent.
§ Mr. LANSBURY
The point is, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that while, under the Act you are quoting, they can charge 10 per cent., they need not charge more than 2 per cent., or anything at all; but under this proposal, while they need not charge anything at all, if they do charge anything it must be 6 per cent. If that does not impose a definite charge, I really do not understand what would.
On the point of Order. May I put to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the specific case of an authority which may be charging 4 per cent. at the present
§ time? When this Bill becomes an Act, that authority must charge 6 per cent, and in a case like that I submit that this Amendment does increase the charge.
§ Mr. FENBY
I hope the principle of this Amendment will be accepted by the House, but I would like to ask the Mover of the Amendment to consider the suggestion that has been made with regard to the rate of interest. I speak as a member of a county finance committee that has had to deal with dilatory authorities so far as the payment of money due is concerned, and we have had to threaten, if not to put into actual operation, the Act of 1852. What I am concerned about is this: I agree that the poor authorities should be considered, but there happen to be different kinds of poor authorities. The case I have in mind, which makes me want a Clause of this kind, is where the board of guardians may get the money from a poor parish, and where it is not the poor parish that is in default, but the board of guardians that is dilatory in paying the money over. This is an actual experience in which I have been concerned. Perhaps the Mover of the Amendment would accept a subsequent Amendment because I do not want an authority by an Amendment of this kind in the Bill to have any temptation to make a little money over a little delay. I do want some machinery whereby the larger authority that has received this money from a poorer parish shall be penalised if it does not pay over to the higher county authority the money it has received from the smaller authority. If the Mover of the Amendment will agree that there should be a final Clause of a permissive character, it would meet the case because in my experience, unless there is a good reason, they would not put an arbitral Clause into operation. If you were to insert "Bank rates with a minimum of 4 per cent." I think there would be good reason why the Clause should stand. I do hope the principle will be accepted.
§ Question,put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 54.1113
|Division No. 394.]||AYES.||[12.32 a.m.|
|Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel||Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M.S.||Ashmead-Bartlett, E.|
|Albery, Irving James||Applin, Colonel R. V. K.||Baldwin, Bt. Hon. Stanley|
|Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)||Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.||Balfour, George (Hampstead)|
|Banks, Reginald Mitchell||Grace, John||Penny, Frederick George|
|Barnett, Major Sir Richard||Grant, J. A.||Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)|
|Barnston, Major Sir Harry||Greene, W. P. Crawford||Perkins, Colonel E. K.|
|Beamish, Captain T. P. H.||Grotrian, H. Brent.||Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)|
|Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)||Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)||Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)|
|Betterton, Henry B.||Halt, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)||Pielou, D. p.|
|Birchall, Major J. Dearman||Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.||Preston, William|
|Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)||Hammersley, S. S.||Price, Major C. W. M.|
|Blades, Sir George Rowland||Hanbury, C.||Radford, E. A.|
|Blundell, F. N.||Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry||Raine, W.|
|Bourne, Captain Robert Croft||Harland, A.||Ramsden, E.|
|Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.||Harrison, G. J. C.||Rawson, Alfred Cooper|
|Brass, Captain W.||Hartington, Marquess of||Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)|
|Brassey, Sir Leonard||Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)||Remnant, Sir James|
|Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive||Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)||Rentoul, G. S.|
|Briscoe, Richard George||Hawke, John Anthony||Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.|
|Brocklebank, C. E. R.||Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.||Rice, Sir Frederick|
|Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J.||Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.||Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)|
|Broun-Lindsay, Major H.||Henn, Sir Sydney H.||Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)|
|Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)||Hennessy, Major J. R. G.||Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.|
|Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)||Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)||Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)|
|Buckingham, Sir H.||Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)||Rye, F. G.|
|Bullock, Captain M.||Hilton, Cecil||Salmon, Major I.|
|Burman, J. B.||Holland, Sir Arthur||Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)|
|Burton, Colonel H. W.||Holt, Captain H. P.||Sandeman, A. Stewart|
|Butler, Sir Geoffrey||Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)||Sanders, Sir Robert A.|
|Butt, Sir Alfred||Hopkins, J. W. W.||Sanderson, Sir Frank|
|Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward||Howard, Captain Hon. Donald||Sandon, Lord|
|Campbell, E. T.||Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)||Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.|
|Cape, Thomas||Hudson, R.S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)||Savery, S. S.|
|Cazalet, Captain Victor A.||Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.||Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)|
|Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)||Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)||Sheffield, Sir Berkeley|
|Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton||Jacob, A. E.||Shepperson, E. W.|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)||Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)||Skelton, A. N.|
|Chilcott, Sir Warden||Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)||Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)|
|Christie, J. A.||King, Captain Henry Douglas||Smith-Carington, Neville W.|
|Clayton, G. C.||Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement||Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)|
|Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.||Knox, Sir Alfred||Stanley Lord (Fylde)|
|Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.||Lamb, J. Q.||Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)|
|Cooper, A. Duff||Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.||Steel, Major Samuel Strang|
|Cope, Major William||Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip||Story Deans, R.|
|Couper, J. B.||Little, Dr. E. Graham||Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.|
|Courtauld, Major J. S.||Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)||Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.|
|Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.||Loder, J. de V.||Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)|
|Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)||Lougher, L.||Sudgen Sir Wilfrid|
|Curzon, Captain Viscount||Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere||Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)|
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman||Thompson, Luke (Sundland)|
|Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)||Lumley, L. R.||Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-|
|Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.||MacAndrew, Charles Glen||Tinne, J. A.|
|Dean, Arthur Wellesley||Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)||Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.|
|Dixey, A. C.||McDonnell, Colonel, Hon. Angus||Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.|
|Drew, C.||Macintyre, Ian||Wallace, Captain D. E.|
|Duckworth John||McLean, Major A.||Warner Brigadier-General W. W.|
|Edmondson, Major A. J.||Macmillan, Captain H.||Waterhouse, Captain Charles|
|Edwards, John H. (Accrington)||McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John||Watson, Sir, F. (Pudsey and Otley)|
|Elliot, Captain Walter E.||Macquisten, F. A.||Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)|
|England, Colonel A.||MacRobert, Alexander M.||Watts, Dr. T.|
|Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)||Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-||Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)|
|Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)||Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn||Wells, S. R.|
|Everard, W. Lindsay||Margesson, Captain D.||Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.|
|Fairfax, Captain J. G.||Meller, R. J.||Wiggins, William Martin|
|Fanshawe, Commander G. D.||Merriman, F. B.||Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)|
|Fenby, T. D.||Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)||Winby, colonel L. P.|
|Fermoy, Lord||Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.||Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George|
|Fielden, E. B.||Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)||Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl|
|Fleming, D. P.||Moore, Sir Newton J.||Wise, Sir Fredric|
|Forestier-Walker, Sir L.||Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.||Wolmer, Viscount|
|Forrest, W.||Moreing, Captain A. H.||Womersley, W. J.|
|Foxcroft, Captain C. T.||Murchison, C. K.|
|Fraser, Captain Ian||Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph||Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)|
|Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.||Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)||Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)|
|Gadie, Lieut.-Colonel Anthony||Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)||Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)|
|Gaibraith, J. F. W.||Nicholson, O. (Westminster)||Woodcock, Colonel H. C.|
|Ganzoni, Sir John.||Nuttall, Ellis||Yeburgh, Major Robert D. T.|
|Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton||Oakley, T.||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Gee, Captain R.||O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)||Colonel Gibbs and Captain|
|Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John||Owen, Major G.||Hacking.|
|Goff, Sir Park||Pennefather, Sir John|
|Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West)||Barr, J.||Briant, Frank|
|Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)||Batey, Joseph||Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)|
|Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')||Beckett, John (Gateshead)||Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)|
|Baker, Walter||Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)||Crawfurd, H. E.|
|Dalton, Hugh||Kelly, W. T.||Walsh, Ht. Hon. Stephen|
|Day, Colonel Harry||Lansbury, George||Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)|
|Dunnico, H.||Lindley, F. W.||Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney|
|Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)||Lunn, William||Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah|
|Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)||Murnin, H.||Westwood, J.|
|Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)||Oliver, George Harold||Whiteley, W.|
|Groves, T.||Pottt, John S.||Williams, David (Swansea, E.)|
|Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon||Riley, Ben||Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)|
|Hayday, Arthur||Scurr, John||Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)|
|Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)||Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)||Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)|
|Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)||Shiels, Dr. Drummond||Windsor, Walter|
|Hore-Belisha, Leslie||Sitch, Charles H.|
|Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)||Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—|
|Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)||Taylor, R. A.||Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.|
|John, William (Rhondda, West)||Tinker, John Joseph||Hayes.|
|Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)|
§ Further Amendment made: In page 10, line 32, leave out paragraph (a).—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
Further Amendment proposed: In page 10, line 43, leave out the words "commission paid to owners," and insert instead thereof the words
allowance made to owners under the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the rating of and the payment and collection of rates by owners, any allowance made in respect of prompt payment of the rate." —[Mr. Chamberlain.]
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAIN indicated assent.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Sir D. NEWTON
I beg to move, in page 11, line 8, to leave out Subsection (5).
The intention of this Sub-section is not, I think, very clear, nor do I think the words are necessary. At present county councils include in one precept their requirements for the general county rate and any special rate required for any special county purpose. The intention is to continue that practice, but these words make mo fear that the precepting authority may have to issue a separate demand notice for rates which are at present included in one precept. It would be well if this Sub-section were deleted.
I can confirm what has been stated as to the intention of the Sub-section. It was intended to refer merely to the different demands 1114 made on the same piece of paper. It appears, however, that it might be construed to mean that separate pieces of paper might have to be issued in respect of each separate rate.
§ Amendment agreed to.