§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. McKenna)I beg to move to leave out from the word "be" to the end of the Question, in order to insert instead thereof the words recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 1, page 1, lines 12 and 14, and page 2, line 10, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer as Amendments to be moved on recommittal."
The reasons for recommitting the Bill will, I think, upon explanation, commend themselves to the House. On the Second Report of the Select Committee I explained to the House that it was intended to invite the National Relief Fund to contribute to the new statutory Committee the sums which they intended to spend upon separation allowance and other purposes in regard to soldiers and sailors. It was thought at the time that inasmuch as it was proposed to set up a new body which would, to a certain extent, be responsible to this House, it would be preferable that the sums which were distributed by the National Relief Fund should pass through the hands of this new statutory body. After the Bill had reached its present stage I attended a meeting of the Committee of the National Relief Fund, 1434 and I found that while some members of the committee fell in with the views which had recommended themselves to the Select Committee, others did not think that they would be justified in handing over the funds which had been entrusted to them by the public to be administered by any other body. I am sure the House will agree with me that it would be undesirable to have a question of that kind decided by a majority of the Committee. I felt that inasmuch as all the members of the Committee regarded themselves as trustees for this fund, if any number of them felt strongly they would not be acting in accordance with the trust committed to them, I ought not to have pressed them to hand over any part of their funds to be administered by the statutory body. Accordingly, in that new state of facts, it became necessary to consider what should be done in regard to the position of the statutory Committee. In the Bill as it now stands we proposed that there should be on the statutory Committee two representatives of the governing body of the National Relief Fund and two representatives of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. The Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association is the body through which the National Relief now expends the money devoted to the service of soldiers and sailors.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERIt dispenses a very large sum on its own account as well—very large indeed.
§ Mr. McKENNAI have no doubt they do, but they were introduced originally into this Bill because they were the body through whom the National Relief Fund's money was being expended.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERThey were simply the medium.
§ Mr. McKENNAOf course, the moment it becomes necessary, as I think the House will agree it does, to remove the representatives of the governing body of the National Relief Fund from the statutory Committee, it also becomes necessary to remove the representatives of the particular association who are the medium through which the National Relief Fund acts. The Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association is not the only body through which work of this kind is done. They were only inserted in the Bill in the first instance because they were in association with the National Relief Fund, from whom they expected to receive a considerable amount of money. If the National Relief 1435 Fund disappears as the body mentioned in this Bill, there is no reason why the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association should be represented any more than the Soldiers' and Sailors' Help Society, or a number of other bodies, all of whom have been doing extremely useful work of this kind.
It must not be supposed that because we feel it necessary in the new circumstances to invite the House to remove the representatives of the governing body of the. National Relief Fund and of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association the statutory Committee and the local committees will not hereafter include representatives of both those bodies. That is quite another matter. It will be seen that in the composition of what I hope hereafter will be twenty-five members of the statutory Committee, twelve shall be appointed by His Majesty, and it will be very much to be expected that amongst those twelve there will be included persons who have special knowledge, either by association with the governing body of the National Relief Fund or through working in connection with the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, of the particular kind of work which the statutory Committee will hereafter have to perform. Another six members are to be appointed by the Royal Patriotic Committee—the General Council of the Corporation—amongst whom no doubt will be found again persons who have special knowledge of this particular kind of work, and when we turn to the local committees, I have no doubt whatever that the local authorities will necessarily include amongst the appointed members of the committee persons with the special knowledge which the active members of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association have now acquired. It is only in order to put the newly-formed statutory Committee in direct and proper relation to the new facts that I now ask the House to recommit the Bill in order to move the Amendments which I have placed upon the Paper.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELBefore the Bill is recommitted I should like to ask one or two questions. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Executive Committee of the Prince of Wales' Fund to continue to supplement the Grants?
§ Mr. McKENNAI have no authority to speak on behalf of the executive of the National Relief Fund, who are in no way 1436 responsible to this House, and I could not pretend to make any statement as to what they intend doing.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELThen I think, following this Motion, it is the duty of the Government to carry out Section 2 of the Report of the Select Committee, which stated definitely that one of the functions of the statutory Committee and the local committees is to supplement the grants in addition to separation allowances. I think the State must do that now. If they cannot obtain the money from the executive of the Prince of Wales' Fund, it is essential, in my opinion, that this Committee should do its work. The only other point I wish to raise is that in the Bill as printed, on page 3, line 13, it is not in accordance with the Amendment passed on the Report stage. The first Sub-section of Clause 2 reads:—
For the purpose of assisting the statutory Committee in the execution of their duties, a local committee shall be established for every county and county borough, and for every borough or urban district having a population of not less than 50,000, and the council of which so desires, and for any borough or urban district.Here ought to come in the words "having a population of not less than 20,000." These words have been omitted. There is an error in the print and I wish to point it out, because there is an obligation upon these boroughs or urban districts councils, with a population of not less than 20,000, to apply to the statutory Committee to become their own local committees. It is very important that these words should be in. I would like, also, to have a statement in regard to Clause 4. I refer to the new Amendment that was carried regarding the giving of information and advice, especially where payments are unduly delayed. I think there ought to be a statement, because it is not in the Clause, that it will come within the power of the Committee to communicate with the War Office and also with the Admiralty in case of these delays. There is no instruction or indication in this Clause to that effect. It was understood that they would have that power.
§ Mr. McKENNA(was understood to say): They will have that power.
§ Sir F. BANBURYDoes the hon. Member want to extend the reference?
§ Mr. McKENNAHe does not want that.
§ Sir J. D. REESWere the Royal Patriotic Fund parties to this? Were they consulted?
§ Mr. McKENNA(indistinctly heard): I told the National Relief Fund.
§ Colonel YATEI think all those who are interested in this Bill must be very much disappointed by the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. The Bill has now been entirely altered. He has taken out the representatives of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association and of the Prince of Wales' Relief Fund, and so far as we can see we are now to have a Committee which is purely an official committee—a committee practically of permanent officials. We all know what permanent officials are. They have their own duties to do in their own offices. Their business is to do their day's work, and to get home to dinner. It is unfortunate to put them on a committee of this sort, the work of which is extraneous to their ordinary business. They have no interest in it, and they will only want to get through the work as quickly as they possibly can. The real live interest in the Committee was that imparted by the presence of representatives of the voluntary societies. They are the people who do this kind of work with care, sympathy, and intelligence. Now they are to be removed entirely from this Bill. Personally, I would have liked to have seen on this Committee representatives of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, the Disabled Soldiers' and Sailors' Help Society, and the Officers' Families Fund. With these voluntary workers on the Committee we should have real sympathy and interest in dealing with the people. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the separation allowances have been administered up to now by the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. Now that he has removed the representatives of that association from the Committee, is he going to remove the separation allowances from the scope of this Bill, or is he not? I think that to swop horses in midstream, as the newspapers say, and to take away the beneficent administration of these allowances in the middle of the War, will be a very great mistake. In my own county we have a representative of this association in every district; we have an agent in every village. Only today I had a complaint from some poor woman that the War Office had sent for her paper, and that she could not get it back and could not get her money. I 1438 referred the matter at once to the representative in the district of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. If you take that agency away, all the poor women who draw separation allowances will have most terrible trouble to put up with. If representatives of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association are not to be put upon the statutory Committee or upon the local committees, the separation allowances ought to be taken out of this Bill altogether. What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do?
§ Sir CHARLES NICHOLSONI would like to add my voice to the protest raised by the hon. and gallant Member opposite. I can quite understand the view taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has not succeeded in drawing a certain amount of money from the Prince of Wales' Fund, and I can quite understand that he may think it right to strike the representatives of that fund off the list of members of the statutory Committee. Of course, he is the watchdog of his Department. I understand his action in that respect, but I do not agree with it. To strike off from the Committee the members of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, who have nothing whatever to do with the National Relief Fund, seems to me to be entirely unnecessary. Ever since the outbreak of the War this association has taken this duty of administering separation allowances upon itself, and has done it well and thoroughly. I do not think anyone will deny that. The members of this Association are people thoroughly conversant with the conditions of those who come before them from day to day, and one of the most important things is the sort of sympathy that is shown between the members of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association Committee and those who go to them for assistance owing to the delays of the War Office in regard to their separation allowances. I think you are making a mistake by removing the representatives of this Association from the committees. In view of the fact that this Association has done this work so well during the whole of the eleven months of the War, I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider the decision he has taken and allow, at least, the representatives of this Association to be members of the statutory Committee.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI wish to speak as strongly as possible in favour of the proposals made by my hon. and gallant 1439 Friend (Colonel Yate) and the hon. Member for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson). No one who knows what has been going on during the last ten months can fail to know the excellent work that has been done by the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say that because the National Belief Fund have not complied with his desires that therefore they must be deprived of their representation. The fact that the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association was represented upon the Committee did not, however, depend merely upon the circumstance that they were the conduit pipe, so to speak, of anything granted by the National Relief Fund, but upon the work they have themselves done, the great assistance in money that they have given, the knowledge that they have of the work required, and the benevolent and sympathetic views that they have shown in connection with this particular work. Because the National Relief Fund has refused to give the grant that the right hon. Gentleman expected, it seems to me that to deprive the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association of their representation upon the Committee savours of a good deal of rancour in the right hon. Gentleman's mind. He cannot forgive the National Relief Fund, and he wishes to punish this Association through the National Relief Fund. I am convinced that the right hon. Gentleman is not easing the passage of this Bill by this concession to a rancorous feeling. Deprive if you like the National Relief Fund of its representation, but do give the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association that representation to which they are entitled by the generosity of their abundant contributions, by the hard work which they have done, and by the knowledge which they have gained during the last ten months in helping those who are to benefit by this Bill.
§ Mr. HOGGEI do not appreciate the criticism that this will be an official committee. There are twenty-five members, of whom eighteen are elected directly by public bodies one way or another, while only seven are official. With regard to the exclusion of any body, such as the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, this Bill gives power in any locality to appoint representatives of that body on a local committee. If you look at page 2 of the Bill, you will see that the constitution of the local committee is such as is approved 1440 by the council of a county borough and so on, the only stipulation being that that body must elect the majority of the members of the new committee. If you have in a locality a Soldiers' and Sailors' Association which has been doing excellent work—
§ Colonel YATEMake it a right, and not a favour!
§ Mr. HOGGEThere is no fear that any efficient body doing this work at the present moment will be excluded. I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is right to expect some contribution from the Prince of Wales' Fund. One of its great duties, which has been taken over by this Committee, is the duty of finding employment for disabled soldiers and sailors. The Prince of Wales' Fund was created for the purpose of alleviating civil distress, and was meant largely to apply to a period of unemployment at the end of the War. Therefore I think that the contribution towards one contributory cause of unemployment, a large number of disabled soldiers and sailors being thrown on the community, was a fair contribution to expect. However, now that he has not got it, I am quite as well satisfied—and I hope that the House is also—for this reason. Obviously now the Chancellor of the Exchequer must find us the money to run this Bill properly. That is the great gain of the Amendment which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now to move. We are now sure that for the purpose for which this Bill is created we shall not have to depend entirely upon voluntary contributions, as was the case in the original draft of this Bill. We shall now be assured of the State doing what it ought to have done from the beginning if the work was to be done properly, that is finance this particular work. Therefore I welcome the changes and hope that the House will agree with them.
§ Mr. RAFFANI desire to get some assurance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am not quite sure whether he is going quite far enough in reference to a matter to which I have already referred. As I pointed out on the Report stage of the Bill, there would be great duplication of work if one committee had the task of measuring separation allowances, and another committee the task of making advances on separation allowances. The right hon. Gentleman representing the Local Government Board who was in charge of the Bill said that he agreed entirely 1441 with me. I should have thought that this Bill should be recommitted and that the matter might be put right now. I raise the point now in case that I should be prejudiced hereafter, and I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will give me some assurance that the promise made on the Report stage will be carried out, and that if the matter is not dealt with in this House on recommittal it will be dealt with in another place in accordance with the pledge given.
§ Mr. McKENNAThe pledge stands good.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERI quite understand the position which the Chancellor of the Exchequer takes up with regard to the equal treatment, as he put it, of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association and the National Relief Fund in this matter, owing to the fact that, in the particular case in question, the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association are distributing the money which comes from the other body. But I do say this, that I am sure that there will be universal disappointment at the failure to recognise in some adequate way the work of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association throughout the Kingdom. I do not know what would have happened to many dependants of our soldiers at the beginning of this War if it had not been for the instant action of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Association in their localities in providing money which the Government were very slow to provide, when not a shilling of public money was distributed at all, except the funds which they themselves possessed and which were dispensed with very great care and prudence. Although there are most excellent societies of that type there ought to be some sort of right on the part of these people to have representation, if not on the central at least on the local committee. The right hon. Gentleman told us, and the hon. Member for East Edinburgh said, that this is not necessarily—and I agree to a large extent—a sort of permanent official committee, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer should tell the House now that he is going to take care of this matter. He will have the nomination of those members to a large extent, who are to be appointed, and he will have a great deal of influence in other respects in the selection of the permanent officials who are to form the various bodies who have representation on the Select Committee. Is he not in a position now to say how he proposes to exercise it? Can he say 1442 that he will recognise on the central body the immense services which this particular association has rendered, and take care to see that some representation, at all events, is given to it in the choice of the men of whom he will have the nomination and control? At any rate I do think, with regard to the local committees, that they ought to have some right in the matter, and not merely the hope that they will be selected or used by the local authorities. I do think that we are on delicate ground. There is universal admiration of the work of this society, and there is very keen gratitude on the part of those who have been dealt with very fairly and generously by it, and who would be very glad to see some recognition for what it has done.
§ 10.0 P.M.
§ Mr. ANDERSONI think that the changes that were made in this Bill are, on the whole, an improvement. On the Committee State of the Bill I only withdrew my Amendment in reference to the National Relief Fund when I was assured by the President of the Local Government Board that the presence of two representatives carried with it no financial obligation so far as they were concerned. I think that the Member for East Edinburgh is wrong in thinking that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the right to look to this fund for money for the disabled soldiers and sailors. The National Relief Fund has already contributed some £2,000,000 for purposes in connection with military charities since the beginnng of the War, and the larger part of this money, in my opinion, ought to have been a direct charge upon the Exchequer, because it was work for which the nation was itself directly responsible, and therefore I am quite sure, so far as disabled soldiers are concerned, that the finding of employment for them is a matter which ought to be a direct national responsibility and a direct national burden. On the other hand, there will be large demands later on, I am quite sure, in regard to civil stress, and it is necessary, I think, that at least a very considerable part of the Prince of Wales' Fund should be retained for the purposes of the civil stress that may easily arise at the end of the War. With regard to the question of represen-sentation of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, I do not believe that anyone will dispute the good work they have done during the period of the War. At the same time, we see that there are jealousies 1443 between that association and various others of a military character. [AN HON. MEMBER: "What jealousies and what other societies?"] I have received protests from them, among them one from the Soldiers' and Sailors' Health Association, who wished to be represented on this Committee. [AN HON. MEMBER: "They ought to be!"] My point is that there does arise friction between the different organisations doing this kind of work, and obviously they ought to be on the Committee or off. It is a point which can be easily argued, but so far as money from public sources is concerned we ought to have ourselves the largest amount of public control over that money, and there is no reason why those organisations with great experience of this work should not be represented on the local bodies. I believe that their claim would be entirely met, and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposal does represent a change for the better, and not for the worse, so far as the Bill is concerned.
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
§ Proposed words there inserted.
§ Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
§ Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 1, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer as Amendments to be moved on re-committal.
§ Considered in Committee.
§ [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]