§ The functions of local committees shall be—
- (a) to inquire into any case referred to them by the statutory Committee, and to report to the statutory Committee their advice and recommendations with respect thereto;
- (b) to collect and furnish to the statutory Committee such information as may be required by the statutory Committee with respect to any matter;
- (c) to distribute any supplementary grants made by the statutory Committee, the distribution of which has been delegated to the local committee;
- (d) out of any funds at their disposal for the purpose, to make contributions towards the funds administered by the statutory Committee, to increase pensions, grants, and separation allowances and to make grants where no pensions, grants, or superannuation allowances are otherwise payable;
- (e) to solicit and receive from the public contributions towards any such purposes as aforesaid;
- (f) to make provision for the care of disabled officers and men after they have left the Service, including provision for their health, training, and employment.
§ The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. Raffan: At the end of the Clause, after the words "The functions of local committees shall be," to insert the words, "to inquire into all applications for pensions, grants, or separation allowances (other than separation allowances for wives and children of soldiers and sailors) made by persons resident within the area of the local committees, and to make recommendations to the statutory Committee thereon."
§ The CHAIRMANThe Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member 394 for Leigh (Mr. Raffan) is, I think, covered by what the Committee has already decided.
§ Mr. RAFFANMay I ask in what way?
§ The CHAIRMANWe have decided that the Committee is to deal only with supplementary grants and allowances, and the hon. Member's Amendment seems to mo to go back on that decision.
§ Mr. RAFFANI am in your hands, but I take it that I would be in order in moving an Amendment providing that the local committees shall deal with all applications for pensions, and not merely with such applications as are referred to the statutory Committee?
§ Sir R. ADKINSMay I ask for the convenience of the Committee whether your ruling applies also to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel), to provide that one of the functions of the local committees shall be to report to the War Office and the Admiralty any claim made by a person entitled to separation allowance, dependant's allowance, or motherless children's allowance, and also in cases when payment is delayed? If the substance of the proposal of the hon. Member for Leigh can be raised on that Amendment, we need not argue in reference to the point of Order.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELOn a point of Order. I may say that I submitted my Amendment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he said that it would come within the purview of the intention of the Pensions Committee, so as to extend the power of the local committee in the direction indicated. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman agreed with the principle when we were discussing this matter previously. Dependants' allowances at the present time are decided by the old age pensions committee. If my Amendment is not carried, in future the old age pensions committee will make recommendation so far as dependants' allowances are concerned, and this Committee will deal with pensions. I want this Committee to be the Committee to deal with both. In addition to referring the matter to the statutory Committee, so far as pensions are concerned, I want this Committee to send the claims and the recommednations in the matter of dependants' allowances either to the War Office or to the Admiralty. The other point I have in my Amendment is this: Where there is delay in the payment to 395 any person entitled to payment I want the woman or the person to have the right to go before this Committee, so that the Committee shall investigate and send word to the War Office. The War Office agreed to that part of the scheme so far back as 17th November. It was referred to the Pensions Committee. I understood from those who sat on the Pensions Committee that they would agree to this.
§ Mr. RAFFANOn a point of Order. I should like to know whether I would be in order in moving my Amendment in this form:—
To inquire into all applications for pensions made by persons resident within the area of the local committee, and to make recommendations to the statutory Committee thereon.That is a point which, so far as I know, has not been decided upon at all by the Committee. The whole point is that the local committee will not deal with every case, because they go automatically to the statutory Committee in the first instance.
§ The CHAIRMANIt is very difficult to decide in some of these matters. Perhaps the Government will give me their assistance? I understand the object of the Amendment is to transfer the duties now appertaining to the old age pensions committee to these new local committees.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELYes.
§ Sir R. ADKINSThat is one object.
§ The CHAIRMANAnother object is that these new local committees shall deal with questions of separation allowance, which are now dealt with by the War Office and the Admiralty.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELNo, no. It is that if there is a person within the area of the the local committee who has a right to claim, that that claim should on their behalf be forwarded to the War Office. That is all I am asking for.
§ Mr. HOGGEWould the Amendment, which is in four words, and between the two on the Paper that are now under discussion, not meet the case of both? To leave out the words "any case referred to them by," and insert "all local cases for." Discussion on that could take place if in order, and, I presume, could be easily dealt with.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI do not know whether I can help at all in this matter, but the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Raffan) is clearly the Amendment upon which the point of Order has arisen. It desires to "inquire into all applications for pensions, grants, or separation allowances." That is in effect allowing the local committee to come in as an intermediary to intervene on behalf of the applicant between the War Office and the Admiralty for a State pension. That is not part of the scheme, and was not part of the scheme of the Select Committee on which this Bill is founded. It was never supposed by the framers of this Bill that there would be any right laid down that this Committee should act as an intermediary or interfere in this matter. I should be quite ready to argue how far the statutory Committee can be made of use for that purpose, but I must submit that this Amendment is not in order.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELThis is really a very important matter. If this is not carried out, we shall get chaos in our localities, because we have now by this Bill practically destroyed the existing organisations so far as these matters are concerned. I should like to refer to the title of the Bill. The title of the Bill says:—
To make better provision as to the pensions, grants and allowances made in respect of the present War to officers and men in the naval and military service of His Majesty and their dependants.…I myself consulted the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who practically drafted this Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] Excuse me, he had a great deal to do with the construction of the whole scheme. I submitted my Amendment to him, and he told me that it would come within the confines of the Bill. If my Amendment is not carried, then you must have—
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member, I think, is addressing me.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELYes; but for the-moment I was appealing to my right hon. Friend to take the matter into his consideration, for unless that is done we must have chaos in the localities.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is now arguing the question on its merits. The only thing I am concerned about i6 the question of order, and as to whether or not I can allow a proposal in Clause 4 397 which contradicts what this Committee has already decided in Clause 3. That is the only point which concerns me.
§ Sir R. ADKINSOn a point of Order, and purely on that point. I submit to you that the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh would be in order if the last few words were taken out, "To make recommendations to the statutory Committee thereon." I understand, Sir, that your doubt as to its being in order arises from the presence of those words, because nothing has at present been defined in regard to the statutory Committee which would allow it to consider such recommendations. I would further ask you on a point of Order, if you decide that my hon. Friend's Amendment is not in order, whether you will do so on ground which will allow the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockton to be in order; because we want to know now whether it is in order to discuss the powers of these committees, or whether they are absolutely dependent upon the words already in the Bill.
§ The CHAIRMANOn that matter I have just intimated that we have already decided the point raised by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leigh. As to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockton I am not so sure, therefore I think that it might be allowable for a short discussion on that point to take place.
§ Mr. HOGGEI beg to move, in paragraph (a), to leave out the words "any case referred to them by," and to insert instead thereof the words "all local cases for."
On a point of Order. I do not object to matters being raised, but I do object to other hon. Members taking control of this Bill. Hon, Members who have Amendments down on the Paper ought to have those Amendments considered, and other hon. Members who have other Amendments on the Paper should not insist that these should be taken first. If they want to do that they should be first at the Table with their Amendments. My Amendment arises on Clause 4, which is being discussed. It raises the point in a correct way. Briefly, my point is this. Whether the local committee will have cognisance of all cases which are being dealt with in the locality? In Clause 3, in paragraph (a), we determine that the functions of the statutory Committee are to decide any question of fact, and so on. What those of us interested, from the point 398 of view of the localities, want to know is whether all these cases that are being dealt with—because, bear in mind, I am speaking for Scotland, which is remote from London—
§ Mr. HOGGEWe want to know if in Edinburgh or Glasgow the local committee that is set up under the provisions of this Bill will have cognisance of all cases that are being dealt with through the statutory Committee? I will be content with that. Is the statutory Committee only going to send down for reference cases in which they are in doubt about questions of fact, or is the local committee going to have full cognisance of everything the statutory Committee is doing for a particular locality?
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI can answer that at once. These great local committees will have full cognisance of all cases which come within the purview and jurisdiction of the statutory Committee.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELI beg to move, in paragraph (a), at end, to insert the words "To report to the War Office and the Admiralty any claim made by a person entitled to separation allowance, dependant's allowance, or motherless children's allowance, and also in cases when payment is delayed."
My Amendment raises another point to that referred to by my hon. and learned Friend behind me. The meaning of my Amendment is simply this: We are now setting up in every district practically throughout the United Kingdom a committee to deal with matters arising within the four corners of this Bill. By this Amendment I want to extend slightly the powers of the local committees, so that if any woman who is entitled to separation allowance, and who is not in receipt of separation allowance from the War Office or the Admiralty, should have the right to go before this committee and make her claim. The committee would then report her claim to the War Office or the Admiralty for consideration There are in all constituencies in this country and in every district hundreds, if not thousands, of women whose men folk have gone to the War, and the women have been very hardly pressed by the fact of not having 399 had their cases dealt with promptly. These women have not been able to go to anybody officially within the district and make that claim to which they are entitled. My Amendment is to give those women that right. I myself have had to deal with a very large number of these cases in my own Constituency. I find in every constituency similar cases, where Members of Parliament have been written to, and where they have had to deal with these applications. I want to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill to this fact: I took up a paper to-day, and in one of the columns of that paper there was a column devoted to claims and delays in payment to dependants. It stated this:—
That the claims department of this newspaper continue? to he the centre of interest to many thousands of dependants of soldiers and sailors.I want to effect a change. These thousands of claims should not come in a newspaper, whatever its political colour; they should come officially and through official representation to this local committee. Instead of these thousands of claimants, according to this paper, having to write to the newspapers or to Members of Parliament or to any person, I want these persons to go to the secretary of the local committee, state that their separation allowance is not forthcoming, and ask the committee to transfer their claim to the War Office or the Admiralty. I am prepared to put words in my Amendment giving the power to these people. The second point of my Amendment is this that where the?dependant—the mother, sister or father—want to make a claim for dependant allowance, under the circular of the War Office and the Admiralty, they, at the present time, go to the old age pensions committee. Under this Pill the old age pensions committee is defunct. I want the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board to understand this point. I want to explain that at the present time the applicants go before the old age pensions committee. That is done under the authority of a circular issued by the War Office and the Admiralty as far back as last October. Under this Bill the old age pensions committee is practically defunct, and, consequently, I want these claimants to have the right to make out their case before this committee, and this committee should decide whether the person is entitled to an allowance and how much it should be. Unless that is done you will have chaos; you will have 400 one committee dealing with the dependants' allowance and another dealing with the pensions, and I want the same committee to deal with both. I want this committee to have a record of the family, and if it turns out that hereafter they are entitled to a pension the committee will have a record upon which they will be able to advise as to the amount they are entitled to receive. My object is to simplify the procedure.There is another important point, and it is in regard to cases where the payment is delayed. Unfortunately, in every district in the country—I do not refer so much to the Admiralty, because in this case I am glad to say that the separation allowances and the dependant allowances are paid very promptly—the War Office has thousands of cases in every town, and there is something wrong in regard to the payment of the separation and dependant allowances. These poor women go for weeks and weeks without their allowances, and there is often a very large accumulation of arrears before they can obain satisfaction. My Amendment will give these poor women this right: If their separation or dependant allowances or pensions are not forthcoming, I want these women to be able to go to this Committee and say, "I am not getting my separation allowance," or "I am not getting my dependant allowance or my pension, and will you write to the War Office on my behalf and make the claim? That would simplify the correspondence with the War Office and the Admiralty, because then yon would have one official to write from every district. The women would go to these officers in the same way as they go now to the old age pension officers in the case of pensions. When I spoke on the Second "Reading I cited a large number of cases which I have dealt with myself. Only yesterday T received from the War Office a letter in regard to a case in which I recovered £6 4s. 11d. and in another £3 11s. Why should these poor women, instead of coming to me as a Member of Parliament, not have the right to go before this Committee and make this claim the first week when the payment is not forthcoming? That is the purpose of my Amendment. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to see his way to accept my proposal. I have already submitted my Amendment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and he agreed with it. I also submitted it to the Financial Secretary to the War Office and he agreed with it, and could not see any 401 harm in it. I think it is generally agreed that the principle of getting one correspondent in each locality would be a great advantage to the War Office and would obviate a great deal of trouble.
§ Sir R. ADKINSI desire to support as heartily as I can the proposal which has just been made by my hon. Friend, and I do so for this reason: It is the opinion of most people concerned in local government that you ought to have only one local committee to deal with all these matters. It is absurd to have one committee to deal with separation allowances and another with pensions. We want to secure that this local committee shall deal with all these matters. We also desire that it shall deal with all the cognate matters which come under the Amendment standing in my name. I may say that the Parliamentary Committee of the County Councils Association met this morning and they strongly supported this Amendment, as they also strongly support the principle underlying the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Raffan), which is not in order. I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to tell us that cither now or on the Report stage he will be able to unify this machinery throughout and provide that this committee, or in some cases the pensions committee, or some other committee, shall be the same committee for all the purposes set out in the earlier Clauses of this Bill, and for the purposes now carried out by the old age pensions committee, including the matter of delay, which requires urgent treatment.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara)I think we all fully appreciate the aim and purpose behind this Amendment. Its purpose is to get these poor people what is due to them as early as possible and obtain the information to assist them as quickly as possible. I am anxious to see that all delay that can be avoided is avoided, and we must all be in sympathy with that object. It will be the duty of the committee to give all assistance they can to these people, but I have just one small doubt as to what will be the result. Instead of making a direct application to the War Office and the Admiralty, if you put this Amendment into the Bill I am not sure that you are not encouraging something which might become the custom, and that is to go to this local committee, then have the application sent on to the statutory Com- 402 mittee, and then the statuory Committee might send it on to the paymaster.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELThis is not my Amendment, which is to send direct to the War Office or the Admiralty.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI will give an illustration. Take the case of a woman in regard to whom there has been some delay about her separation allowance or in the receipt of her pension. She goes, and you encourage her to go by this Amendment, to the local committee. In due course they send it on, and I hope very promptly, to the statutory Committee. An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] They have to send it on to the War Office or the Admiralty, and that, may entail a delay which would be obviated by direct application to the Admiralty or the War Office. I am aware of the fact that in the way suggested they will be able to get assistance, and that rather outweighs my objection. In regard to this proposal I confess a doubt, but I can say that we will look into this Amendment in the spirit of his proposal with a view of assisting these people, and deal with it when we come to the Report stage with a view to carrying out what my hon. Friend so admirably desires.
§ Mr. DICKINSONWe ought to clear our minds about the actual position. I think by hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment is mistaken. The statutory Committee has nothing to do with the present separation allowances, and therefore the settlement of questions as to delay in payment will remain after this Bill becomes an Act in precisely the same position as it is at present. The pension officers and the Pensions Committee will go on dealing directly with the Admiralty and the War Office. There is the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association and although this association does not exist all over the country, where it does exist it does precisely the work which my hon. Friend wants to be done. It enables poor women to bring their claims in a proper form to the proper quarter, and they hurry up the paymaster. Hundreds of widows through this association send applications to the paymaster every day to hurry up the payment of their separation allowances. I quite agree that when the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association is done away with it will be necessary that we should have some committee. My only difficulty is that you are establishing a local committee in each part of 403 the country which is going to be a subcommittee of the statutory Committee, and you are giving to that local committee functions which you are not giving to the statutory Committee, because you are giving them a right of inquiry and recommendation. You are doing this outside the work of the parent Committee, which is the statutory Committee. That is why I urge that the statutory Committee should have something to do with the separation allowances. At the present moment I can quite foresee that when my right hon. Friend comes to consider the words of this Amendment he will find some difficulty. I think it is essential to understand exactly what is the position, and I only rose to point that out, and at the same time to say that unless something is done the disappearance of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association will leave a void all over the country which you must deal with in some way or another.
§ Sir NORVAL HELMEMight I suggest that the offer which the right hon. Gentleman has made fully meets the requirements which some of us are anxious to press, and that my hon. Friend might well withdraw the Amendment?
§ Sir R. ADKINSI hope my right hon. Friend will really consider, before we get to the Report stage, whether he can meet the wishes of local authorities of all kinds in this country that the pensions committee and this Committee should not exist both at the same time for doing work with regard to superannuation allowances. That is a question which will be brought to an issue on Report, and I can assure the Government that they will have the support of every kind of local authority in putting the two together in some form or other. On that understanding I hope my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment.
§ Mr. PRINGLEBefore my hon. Friend withdraws, I wish to put a question. A good many undertakings have been given regarding changes on the Report stage, and we appreciate the fact that these undertakings have been given. At the same time, I think the right hon. Gentleman might endeavour to see that before the Report stage the Government Amendments appear on the Paper a sufficient time to enable Members of the Committee, who are interested in this subject, to consider them.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI have taken steps this morning so that these Amendments shall be put on the Paper, and I hope there will be at least two or three days' notice.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELI appreciate very much the spirit in which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty has met my Amendment, and, therefore, I desire to withdraw it But I should like to say in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson), that when I applied the word "defunct" it was so far as this work was concerned—that they would have no power under this Bill—and not that the old age pensions committee would be otherwise defunct unless the powers were taken away from them.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Sir R. ADKINShad an Amendment ore the Paper, at the end of paragraph (a), to-insert the words, "and to hear and determine appeals by any person claiming a separation allowance against the decision of the local pensions officer."
§ The CHAIRMANDoes not the Amendment of the hon. Member mean a charge on the public funds?
§ Sir R. ADKINSI do not think it does but I will leave out the word "determine" if that conveys a charge to your mind. I beg to move, at end of paragraph (a), to insert the words, "and to hear appeals by any person claiming a separation allowance against the decision of the local pensions officer, and such officer shall be under obligation to attend such appeal."
Our point is that the local committee, constituted as this will be, should be the court of appeal for the applicant against the pension officer; at any rate, so far as sending recommendations to the War Officer or the Admiralty goes at the present time. What is called an appeal is very often perfectly farcical. The pension officer appointed by another Government Department declines to go to the local committee and give his reasons for what has been done, and the unfortunate person who may not have been given a sufficient allowance is thereby in a difficult position in getting justice from a committee which is willing to give justice. What I ask is, that my right hon. Friend will specifically take this point into consideration, and we shall certainly try to see him before the Report stage. I am sneaking on behalf 405 of county councils, and I know on behalf of other councils, who desire that there should be a fair hearing of every claim.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERThis Amendment raises an extremely difficult question, which has exercised my attention for some time, because, in common with others, I have heard many complaints all over the country that decisions now are very often not come to on sufficient knowledge of the case, and do not give satisfaction. At the present moment there is no appeal if the pension officer and the pensions committee agree. It seems to me there ought to be some kind of appeal. As to whether you can bring it about or not, I told my hon. Friend yesterday that it is a matter for consideration between now and Report. This is an Amendment I do not think I could accept, or one which would work. It is to secure that the local committee of the statutory body shall hear and determine appeals.
§ Sir R. ADKINSRecommended.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERNow the local pensions officer has to deal with two committees. I should like to see the time when this one committee covered the whole ground. I want to see as much ground covered by these committees as I possibly can in the matter of soldiers and sailors. I think in a great many places the old age pensions committee will form a large part of the local committees. There is all the more reason to simplify the proceedings and, if possible, give a really effectual appeal to the local committee, making it a good judicial body and making it the court of appeal from the pension officer. That is what I should like to bring about if I could, and between now and Report stage I am quite ready to confer with my Friends to see what we can do on those lines.
§ Sir R. ADKINSIn view of my right hon. Friend's answer, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. ANEURIN WILLIAMSI beg to move, at the end of paragraph (b), to insert the words, "and to appoint some person whose duty it shall be to assist applicants for such supplementary grants."
This Amendment is very closely connected with what we have just been discussing, and that is the desirability for poor applicants who very often have not 406 had much opportunity of learning to express themselves, especially in writing, to have somebody whose definite business it shall be to help them in the statement of their cases, not-necessarily in the committee, but somebody who would take up the work and who would explain what information the applicant must get and put it into form. It is the kind of work that has been done by volunteers all over the country. I have a letter here from a gentleman with immense experience in this work. I asked him for suggestions in regard to this Bill, and this is what he says:—
Each claimant should have a person to help then) to state their ease. I have form that a pension officer can, by cross-examination, get the answer he desires from people who have had no training in such matters. In nearly every case where I have appealed against the decisions of the pensions committee in dependant cases the appeal has been granted and an additional allowance made.That is a gentleman to whom innumerable poor people have gone, and he has put their case into shape. I suggest it should be the duty of these local committees to appoint some person who would take that work up. I do not think it could satisfactorily be done by an official of the committee or by a member of the committee unless he were a member who has specialised in that particular work. An ordinary officer or ordinary member of the committee must necessarily be there to guard the funds and to take a judicial view of the matter. What we want is somebody who will act, as it were, as a friendly attorney for the applicant. I am not quite sure I have put this question down in the right way, not being very experienced in these matters, because I have put it down in regard to supplementary grants, and I venture to think the same person should deal with other matters. I am sure the question will have the right hon. Gentleman's personal sympathy, and I hope he will accept what I have proposed in principle, namely, that there should be someone or some persons sufficiently experienced for this work to-help applicants. I believe it would greatly help the committee, and also greatly help-the people who are incapable of stating their own case.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERWe all want to assist worthy applicants to put their case for a supplementary pension in a satisfactory way, but I should not be inclined to tie down the various committees—some thousands throughout the country—to appoint one particular person who shall be 407 charged with this duty. For my part, if I were a member of the committee, I should think I was neglecting my duties if I did not assist anyone who came before me to put his case intelligently, and even forcibly, so that he should get justice. I could not bind the committees to appoint one particular person.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. HOGGEI beg to move to leave out paragraph (d).
The localities know very much better than the centre how to raise money. I am convinced that if, for instance, in Glasgow or Edinburgh, an appeal is made for money in a particular way and for a particular local purpose we are much more likely to get a great deal more money for that purpose. I want to make it quite clear that if we are going to get money for these purposes, it is perhaps a mistake to tie it down too rigidly when perhaps there are better ways of getting money locally.
§ 5.0 P.M.
§ Sir NORVAL HELMEThere was no recommendation of this sort in the Reports that were published, and I should like to see the elimination of this paragraph, so that local committees do not solicit public subscription.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELI understand that by this Sub-section the local committee, out of the funds at their disposal, can give supplementary grants. There are a large number of committees in the North of England who will not transmit their money to the central authority, and the paragraph is really inserted to meet that point. They will contribute out of the moneys collected in their own district to make these supplementary grants.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELThe money will be transferred to this committee. I am quite certain of that, because it will be practically the same committee in these localities. They are now making these supplementary grants towards the recipients of separation allowances and dependant allowances. I think that the Clause is a very proper one.
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
408§ Sir W. BEALEI beg to move, in paragraph (d), after the word "grants" ["and to make grants where no pensions"], to insert the words "or allowances."
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI shall be very pleased to accept the Amendment.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: In paragraph (d) to leave out the word "superannuation," and to insert instead thereof the word "separation."—[Mr. Dickinson.]
§ Mr. HOGGEI beg to move to leave out paragraph (e).
This paragraph places upon the local committee the duty of soliciting and receiving public contributions. That means that in Glasgow, for instance, to take a concrete case, the local committee would solicit from the public contributions, and the money, less such sum as was required to cover local expenses, would go to the statutory Committee in London. Many public funds are started in the country, and you get very much less because of the prejudice that exists against local money being sent up to a statutory Committee in London. If I am correct in my interpretation, I leave it, though I do not agree with it.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERWe know from experience that there are a good many parts of these islands, particularly the northern parts, where they like to raise their own money and to retain it. Although we may think that our standard of relief is a high standard, there are people like the miners who say that they want their people to be still better done. They collect their own money and they raise the standard. It is not in human nature to prevent it, and it is much better to indicate that we fully expect it, and to say that where the standard is raised they will collect their own money, retain it and pay for that standard.
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause." put, and agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.