§ (1) The functions of the statutory Committee shall be:—
- (a) to decide any question of fact on the determination of which the amount of a pension or grant payable out of public funds to a dependant, other than a widow or child, may depend;
- (b) to frame a scale of supplementary grants in cases where owing to the exceptional circumstances of the case, the pension or grant or separation allowance payable out of public funds seems to the committee to be inadequate;
- (c) out of funds at their disposal, to supplement pensions and grants and separation allowances payable out of public funds, so, however, that no such supplementary grant shall be made except in accordance with such scale as aforesaid;
- (d) out of funds at their disposal, to make grants in cases where no separation allowances or pensions are payable out of public funds;
- (e) to decide, in any particular case, whether any pension or grant or separation allowance has, under the regulations subject to which it was granted, become forfeited;
- (f) to decide, as between two or more claimants to any pension or grant or separation allowance, which, if any, of the claimants is entitled thereto;
- (g) to determine any other questions in relation to pensions or grants or separation allowances which may be referred to the committee by the Admiralty or Army Council;
- (h) to administer any funds which may be placed at the disposal of the committee by the corporation or by local committees or by any society or other organisation having funds applicable to the making of grants of the nature of those which the committee are authorised to make, or otherwise;
- (i) to make provision for the care of disabled officers and men after they have left the service, including provision for their health, training, and employment.
§ (2) The statutory Committee may refer to any local committee for their consideration and advice any question pending before the statutory Committee, and may request any local committee to collect and furnish them with any information they may require with respect to any matter, and may delegate to any local committee the distribution within their area of any grants made by the statutory Committee, and may pay of contribute towards the payment of the expenses incurred by the local committee in respect of any of the matters aforesaid.
383§ (3) Paragraphs (8), (9), (10), and (11) of the First Schedule to the Patriotic Fund Reorganisation Act, 1903 (relating to funds, accounts and audit) shall apply in respect of the statutory Committee in like manner as they apply in respect of the Corporation.
§ (4) The statutory Committee shall in I each year make a report of their proceedings which shall be included in the annual, report made by the Corporation to His Majesty.
§ Amendment proposed [6th July]: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (i), after the word "health" ["health, training, and employment"], to insert the word "housing."—[Mr. Hogge.]
§ Question again proposed, "That the word 'housing' be there inserted." Debate resumed.
§ Mr. HOGGEI made my speech on this yesterday, and therefore I need not repeat the points which I made then, except that I want to add this further sentence. I understand that there is some confusion of thought with regard to the insertion of the word "housing" as to whether we are creating two housing authorities and whether the question of housing is entirely a Local Government Board matter. I do not mean by the insertion of the word "housing" to give to this Committee any power over the erection of houses. If is obviously a Local Government Board duty to determine whether houses should be erected for certain areas and that they should be properly planned and sanitary, and so on. This is simply to enable the Committee to make provision for these particular cases.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Mr. ROCHI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (i), to insert the words "and for other purposes which, in the opinion of the statutory Committee, may conduce to the attainment of such object." The object of the Amendment is to give the widest possible discretion to the statutory Committee in framing a scheme.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Hayes Fisher)The words proposed contain a very wide interpretation of the purposes of the Clause, and in many cases objects might be included which are already ruled out. I should not like to add to them.
§ Mr. PRINGLEI would point out that the words of the Amendment limit the scope of the provision in a very clear way. The words are "and for other purposes which, in the opinion of the statutory Committee, may conduce to the attainment of such object." If the Amendment had been in a general form "for other purposes," there would have been some validity in the right hon. Gentleman's reply. By the admission of the right hon. Gentleman the matter is left entirely to the statutory Committee, and he need have no fear as to widening its powers. The words which are proposed by my hon. Friend are limited by reference to the discretion of the statutory Committee, and I think the right hon. Gentleman would be right in accepting them, and I strongly urge the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his statement.
§ Mr. ROCHMay I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the matter. I think he will agree that the powers and duties of this new statutory Committee are extremely novel and extremely difficult to work out. What I am afraid of is that even under the powers that they have got, unless those powers are extended in some manner or in the way I have suggested, there will crop up in the work, in future, things this Committee would like to do, and which it will be precluded from doing. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that any fear which he may have in regard to widening the powers of this Committee may be dismissed because those powers will be effectively controlled by the Treasury Grant, which I understand will be given. It will be useless for this Committee to embark on wild-cat schemes unless they have money to carry them out, and therefore there will be a complete check upon the Committee, if they exercise their powers in a manner which does not command approval, in the fact that they will receive no financial help to carry out their intentions.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI have very carefully considered the arguments in favour of an enlargement of the powers of the Committee. It is quite true that the statutory Committee would to a large extent have their powers limited by the money at their disposal, but I would remind the Committee that there may be an Amending Bill some day, when we have seen how this Bill works, and larger powers may be given when larger financial resources are placed at the Committee's disposal.
§ Mr. HOGGEIt is perfectly true that probably we shall require to have an Amending Bill in the future, but that is a very clear and cogent reason why we should have this particular Bill, which we are passing now, so constructed as to avoid any necessity for amendment. We are creating the statutory Committee, and we are giving it great powers. I raised the point on the last Amendment, but I received no reply. This Amendment meets my point, and I hope my right hon. Friend may continue the courtesy which he extended to us yesterday, and give us sufficient reasons from the Front Bench why the element of housing has been cut down. This Amendment which is before us would invest this statutory Committee with power for other purposes, and obviously part of the purposes would be housing, and the Amendment, therefore, deals with the question which I raise. Let me give my right hon. Friend a case in point. The country had been startled before the outbreak of War by finding that soldiers, the very men about whom we talk so much while engaged in this War, found themselves in the workhouse after serving their country. My right hon. Friend will agree that this has been one of the scandles of the past. It has been possible for a man who has been serving his country to find himself in the workhouse afterwards. I pointed out to my right hon. Friend what the amount of the allowance was, and how, while it was sufficient in itself, it might not be substantial enough, in an isolated case, to put a man in the position in which he ought to be put. If my right hon. Friend will give the powers sought to be given by this Amendment, and put it within the discretion of the Committee to deal with a case of that kind, then obviously it at least provides an opportunity for the Committee to do something, whether it does it or not. Nobody would be able to ask, then, why the Committee had not done a thing, because their reply would be that they were unable to do it as they had not money enough. I submit that the powers proposed should be given, and so obviate what my right hon. Friend knows perfectly well has been a great public scandal with regard to the treatment of soldiers in the past.
§ Mr. SHERWELLI would like to join in the appeal of my right hon. Friend on this point, because it does seem to me of the utmost importance that we should give consideration, at this stage, to the 386 interests of a most deserving class, whose needs are sought to be met by this particular Bill. It is certainly a very serious proposal to make to this Committee that we should be prepared to recognise that there may be serious defects in this legislative proposal, and that we shall probably have at some future day a Bill introduced with the object of amending this legislation. It seems to me that this Committee ought not to lightly pass by the danger of very great defects because the Committee has power, on some future occasion, to remedy those defects which have caused suffering owing to the fact of their existence. After all, the concern of this Committee is to see that the most serious cases of need are properly met under the provisions of this Bill, and some of us do feel very sincerely that there is danger in the drafting of the Bill as it now stands and that the needs of the most deserving cases might not be met by its particular proposals. Assuming that the fear of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) were realised, assuming that by enlarging the discretionary powers of this statutory Committee it might find itself short of the necessary funds, the Government in that case, when the shortage arises out of the endeavour to meet the real needs of those who have suffered, would have an overwhelming case with which to come to this House and ask for larger funds to be placed at their disposal. I do most earnestly appeal to the Government to consider in a more reasonable spirit than has yet been shown the case that we have advanced for this particular Amendment.
§ Mr. WATTI desire to support the appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider the advisability of adopting this Amendment. Surely there can be no harm in inserting powers in this particular Subsection to deal with the subject. We are told that there may be later legislation, and that we should wait until that, but are we not here now to deal with the matter and to make the legislation in connection with it as perfect as possible? I hope the right hon. Gentleman, seeing that hon. Members are desirous that this Amendment should be accepted, will display the magnanimity which has hitherto characterised him in connection with this Bill.
§ Mr. C. DUNCANThe argument against this Amendment seems to be that it would be very unwise to have the objects which could be dealt with so wide that owing to the shortness of money the Committee 387 might not be able to cover all the objects specified by the Bill. Let us consider the matter from the opposite point of view. Suppose there was a very large response and a very considerable amount of money, then it might be that a good deal of the money might be wasted on objects specified in the Act, whereas otherwise the money might have been used in a much better way by giving the statutory Committee a wider range of choice in objects.
§ Mr. PRATTI rise to add my voice to those already raised in favour of this Amendment. I think there is a great deal of disappointment in the country, and it has found expression in the Press, and from amongst those who speak for the working classes, that the powers that have been given to deal with disabled officers and men are far too narrow and not sympathetic enough. A point to which I wish to draw attention especially is this: In the Committee presided over by Sir George Murray one recommendation was that the Committee which undertook the care of disabled officers and men after their return should have the power, if necessary, to secure proper housing for all those suffering from tubercular disease. Nobody knows better than the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that there is quite a difficulty in this matter, especially in regard to those who are not under the National Insurance Act. That is only one of the many points under the head of housing. I have had the valuable experience of sitting on a great corporation for many years, and I remember well how, that in dealing with this question of consumptives, we found that it was absolutely in regard to the greater part of the problem a question of housing.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member appears to have misconceived the Amendment before the Committee. The Amendment proposing to insert the word "housing" was negatived by the Committee, and we cannot go back on that.
§ Mr. PRATTOn the point of Order. Do I understand that even if this Amendment were carried with the words, "and for other purposes," that that would not include housing?
§ The CHAIRMANSo far as housing is concerned, we have distinctly declined to include the word in this Bill, and if I had anticipated that the purpose of this Amendment was to go back on that decision, I would not have called it.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIs not my hon. Friend entitled to consider that point if it is left to the discretion of the statutory Committee to apply the money "for other purposes which, in the opinion of the statutory Committee, may conduce to the attainments of such objects." That does not make it mandatory to deal with housing, but leaves a discretion to the Committee, and from that point of view is my hon. Friend not in order?
§ The CHAIRMANCertainly not. The proposal was that it should be one of the included possible subjects in a previous Amendment which was negatived, and we cannot go back on that.
§ Mr. PRATTI would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. We are asked here to give powers including provision for the health of these disabled officers and men. I would be grateful if you would state if those powers would be sufficient to enable the statutory Committee or sub-committee to deal with such a proposal as is made by Sir George Murray's Committee, namely, that some consideration should be taken of the housing of those who are the victims of tubercular disease?
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERSo far as I can judge, the Bill makes provision for the care of disabled officers and men, and that, I think, would give the Committee discretion to deal with such cases as those in which the hon. Member takes a special interest, cases of tuberculosis amongst the officers and men, and also in cases of partial paralysis where it might be necessary to house them in institutions or in houses. The words "care of" will undoubtedly give full power to deal with cases of that sort.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. HOGGEI beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3). I do so in order to obtain from the right hon. Gentleman a statement as to what the powers referred to are.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERThis is machinery which is always put in to safeguard any such funds as will be at the disposal of the Committee, and he can take it from me that it is necessary machinery.
§ Mr. HOGGESupposing, as we hope may be the case, that public funds will be available for the purpose of this Bill, what, then, about the matter? I understand that in connection with the Royal Patriotic 389 Fund, since the reorganisation, if there is public money a certain system of audit is adopted.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERThe audit of the funds of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation, whether subscribed or otherwise, is a very strict Treasury audit, and I think it would be ample for the funds of this body.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. HOGGEI beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "proceedings," to insert the words "to both Houses of Parliament."
I do so in order to make perfectly sure that the report of the proceedings shall be laid before Parliament as an ordinary Parliamentary Paper.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERIt is already provided that the Report of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation is sent to His Majesty, and is then laid before both Houses. That is the procedure we propose to follow in this case.
§ 4.0 P.M.
§ Mr. PRINGLEAt what period of the year is it the practice of the Royal Patriotic Corporation to issue its report. Will the same practice be followed in the future? My reason for asking is that it is extremely important that this report should be issued while Parliament is sitting, and before the Vote is likely to come before the Committee of the House.
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERThe annual meeting of the Corporation is very much governed by the fact that we have to fix the date to meet the convenience of certain members. It is usually held in May, but this body will have its annual meeting rather earlier, in order that it may be quite certain that Parliament should have a full and ample opportunity of considering the matter.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Sir C. NICHOLSONI beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add:—?
"(5) For the purpose of enabling the statutory Committee to discharge their functions, the Admiralty, the War Office, and any body of persons administering trusts, whether public or private, for the benefit of officers, sailors, marines, and soldiers, their widows, children, or dependants shall, on request, supply the statutory Committee with such particulars as 390 they may require with regard to any payments made by them to any officer, sailor, marine, soldier, widow, child, or dependant, and no supplementary grant shall be made until such particulars have been obtained."
This Amendment stands in the name of the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler), in whose absence I move it, because it seems to me that when enormous powers are being given to this statutory Committee it is essential that full information as to what is being done from other funds in any particular case should be communicated to all concerned. I am not sure that the Amendment is exactly in the form in which I would have drafted it, but, in order to elicit an expression of opinion from the Minister in charge of the Bill, I wish to ask whether he would be willing that all such information as is set out in the Amendment should be communicated to the people concerned?
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERI would like to accept the underlying principle of this Amendment, but I certainly could not accept the words "and no supplementary grant shall be made until such particulars have been obtained." It might be necessary to make a supplementary grant in a very urgent case and we should not wait for these particulars. Moreover, the Amendment is mandatory on any body of persons administering trusts, "whether public or private," for the benefit of officers, sailors, marines, and soldiers, their widows, children or dependants. I am not sure whether we could make it mandatory on those who are administering private trusts. If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will on Report bring up words to carry out the general principle of the Amendment, cutting out the words to which I have referred.
§ Mr. J. SAMUELI would like to point out that the supplementary grants which are being made now through certain associations, amounting probably to £2,000,000, or at any rate considerably over £1,000,000, have been given without any consideration at all by any such Committee. If the local committees who have been paying these grants to the recipients are to be hampered by having to receive information from the statutory Committee before they make the grants, there will be prolonged delay. Therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not consider that part of the Amendment at all.
§ The CHAIRMANI have still some doubt whether this Clause is the right place for dealing with this point. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, when considering the matter, he should have that looked into. It might be better to bring up the proposal as a separate Clause.
§ Sir RYLAND ADKINSI hope my right hon. Friend will consider whether he cannot deal with private trusts, because it is very important that persons who are acting under this Bill should have cognisance of all the help received by the people with whom they are seeking to deal.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. HOGGEYou have indicated, Mr. Whitley, that this would be the proper opportunity to raise what is perhaps one of the largest questions so far considered in connection with the Bill. I have already spoken on so many Amendments that I do not propose to go over the arguments which I have already used. I believe that all Members, including those who are in charge of the Bill, are convinced in their own minds that the scheme cannot be adequately carried out unless we have a distinct promise and understanding that public money will be available if the income from charitable sources is not sufficient to cover all that conies within the four corners of the Bill. Before we part with this Clause, we want a distinct pledge on that point from a Member of the Cabinet. The only such Member present is the President of the Local Government Board, of whose sympathies with regard to the provision of funds for this purpose we are all aware. If he, as representing the Cabinet, can at once assure the Committee that that is the intention, then we shall be content not to continue the discussion.
§ The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Long)I quite recognise the spirit in which the hon. Member has spoken, and I fully recognise the great importance of the question we are now discussing. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated yesterday, I believe quite clearly, that while he hoped and believed—and he has information on this subject not possessed by all of us—that there would be sufficient funds provided from charitable sources, he would undertake on the part of the 392 Government that, if those funds were not forthcoming, he would ask Parliament to provide them. I think we are bound to-leave the matter where he left it, because, after all, he is responsible for the finances of the country. We all know as a matter of common knowledge how tremendous is the burden which he has to bear, and how immense are the financial liabilities which this country has now to undertake. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is in deadly earnest over this Bill and profoundly impressed by the need for it, is as anxious as anybody can be that adequate and prompt provision should be made for those who suffer in this War or their relatives, and I am confident that he means that this Bill shall not fail for want of funds. He thinks he has good reason to believe that funds will be obtainable from sources other than the public Exchequer, but at the same time he has given the House and the country a distinct assurance that if his hopes are disappointed Parliament shall be asked to find the money.
After all, this only applies to a, comparatively speaking, small proportion of the work which this Board will have to do at once. The pensions payable to these, people are already provided by Parliament. It is only in regard to the difference between them and certain other payments that this extra money will be required. I confess, as an old hand in passing legislation through this House, I do not like the practice of passing a Bill on the understanding that its holes are to be filled up at some future time by an amending Bill. Yet I think my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill was fully justified in what he said just now. We are on new ground. Hon. Members who have taken an active interest in this matter and contributed largely to the Debate will admit that the knowledge of individuals is limited, and that we must look for some information in the future. I hope, therefore, the Committee will be satisfied with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and will understand that the Government are in earnest, and that if the money is not available from other sources it shall be provided, so that want of money will not hamper the work of the Corporation.
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEI understood from the right hon. Gentleman yesterday that in regard to widows and certain other persons this Committee would have power to allocate money 393 towards their pensions. I should like to ask whether the Committee will have the same power in the ease of disabled soldiers, officers, and men?
§ Mr. HAYES FISHERThat is undoubtedly within the powers given to the statutory Committee.
§ Question put, and agreed to.