HC Deb 07 July 1915 vol 73 cc408-12

(1) Any lord mayor or mayor, lord provost or provost, who is as such a member of the Corporation may, if he is unable or unwilling to act as a member thereof, appoint some other person in his place to be a member of the Corporation; and any person so appointed shall hold office so long as the person by whom he is appointed holds his office as lord mayor, mayor, lord provost or provost.

(2) In addition to the persons whom the general council of the Corporation may co-opt under the Royal Patriotic Fund (Re-organisation) Act, 1903, the council may co-opt as members thereof any number (not exceeding thirteen) of persons having special experience in work of the character to be performed by the Corporation; but in exercising this power of co-option the council shall have regard to the desirability of including women as well as men amongst the members so co-opted.

(3) Every member of the statutory Committee appointed under this Act shall, by virtue of his office as member of that Committee, be, a member of the Corporation; but shall not as such be entitled to act or vote in respect of any question arising before the Corporation as regards matters dealt with by the Corporation independently of this Act.

(4) The purposes of this Act shall be included amongst the purposes for which the Corporation may solicit and receive contributions from the public and donations of property.

(5) Save as otherwise expressly provided, nothing in this Act shall affect the constitution or powers and duties of the Corporation.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "Royal."—[Mr. King.]

Mr. WING

I beg to move in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "thirteen," and to insert instead thereof the word "fifteen."

Mr. HAYES FISHER

The number was very well considered. In the First Schedule of the constitution of the Corporation the council was empowered to co-opt any number not exceeding seven, and thirteen has been chosen in order to make the number the Corporation can co-opt the well considered number of twenty. I should be very sorry to increase it.

Mr. J. SAMUEL

Is not the number thirteen very unlucky?

Mr. WING

How many is it proposed to co-opt?

Mr. HAYES FISHER

Any number of persons not exceeding seven, each of whom shall be nominated as the representative of charitable funds. These seven must be representatives of charitable funds founded for the like purpose, but they may be men or women. It is the same with the thirteen whom we are empowering the Corporation to co-opt, making twenty in all. They may be men or women, and the hon. Member may rest assured that there will be a good number of women.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. WING

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "Corporation" ["performed by the Corporation"], to-insert the words "at least one-third of the members so co-opted shall be women."

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I hope that my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. It is not wise to fetter the discretion of the Corporation more than possible, and I think I have shown my desire that women shall be well represented both on the Corporation and on this new body.

Mr. KING

On account of the very generous way in which the right hon. Gentleman has met us in this matter, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. DICKINSON

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "have regard to the desirability of including," and to insert instead thereof the words "include some."

Surely my right hon. Friend will agree to say that the council shall include women. I do not know why we should leave the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation merely under the obligation to consider and consult women.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I accept the Amendment.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Words "include some" there inserted.

Mr. GOLDSTONE

I beg to move in Sub-section (2), after the word "men" ["women as well as men"], to insert the words "representative of working-class industrial organisations."

The object of the Amendment is to secure that on this particular Committee there shall be representatives of working class industrial organisations. It appears to me that this is very desirable from the point of view of the money which will be-raised by representatives of working men and by the working men themselves. If we are to secure the confidence of the people who will be expected to subscribe, and who from their goodness of heart will subscribe, it is desirable to secure their goodwill by giving them direct representation. You make provision for women, and I see no good reason why you should not similarly make provision for the representatives of persons who may be expected to provide a considerable portion of the funds. You will in that way secure their confidence. Certain working men at least have a suspicion of people whom they are apt to dub as busybodies. I do not describe them as such. I give the experience of men who have had to deal with this kind of person: They are estimable persons who devote a great deal of time to this kind of work, but they are apt to be inquisitorial, and the presence of representatives of industrial organisations would tend to retain that confidence which it is desirable to keep, and, as the principle has been conceded in other classes, it would appear to me that this would be quite in line with that which has been already done.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

Yesterday I expressed my very strong desire that the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation should co-opt representatives of the industrial community, but I think that they are much more likely to take that line without these words than if any such words were inserted.

Mr. GOLDSTONE

The right hon. Gentleman says we should be more likely to get representation if these words are not included. My point is that if the words are included we shall be sure to get it, because they will give statutory effect to our desire. I can hardly say I am satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's reply. I think we ought to have something more definite in the way of an assurance that consideration shall be given to this point, possibly with a view of putting in words on the Report stage. That would be carrying out a promise already given in connection with another part of the Bill.

Mr. HAYES FISHER

I have already said I will consider the exact form of words by which labour representation shall be introduced on the statutory body.

Mr. GOLDSTONE

That is satisfactory. I do not press my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. HOGGE

May I ask one question with regard to this Clause? Is there any part of the work of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation left to anybody but the new statutory Committee? Do we, by this Bill, bring all the work of the Royal Patriotic Fund within the four corners of the measure, or will that Corporation still retain special work of its own?

Mr. J. SAMUEL

I should like to ask whether the Royal Patriotic Fund will in any way interfere with the work of the statutory Committee, or will it merely assist and advise that body from time to time?

Mr. HAYES FISHER

With regard to the first question I may point out to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that Subsection (5), of Clause 5, runs— Save as otherwise expressly provided, nothing in this Act shall affect the constitution or powers and duties of the Corporation. The work of the Royal Patriotic Fund will continue to be done in the old way; and may I say that, with a considerable experience of that body, it would be a great pity if its duties were transferred to this new body. I am asked whether the Corporation will interfere with the work of the statutory body. So far as I can make out, the statutory body holds much the same position in relation to the Corporation as the Asylums Committee of the London County Council holds to that county council. It is, in fact, entirely independent. The Corporation will, no doubt, give the benefit of its advice, but it is not intended that it shall in any way interfere with the duties of the statutory body.

Question put, and agreed to.