§ 1. "That there shall be charged for the current and every subsequent financial year on the rental value of all rights to work minerals and of all mineral way leaves, a duty at the rate in each case of one shilling for every twenty shillings of that rental value.
§ The rental value to be taken to be—
- (a) Where the right to work the minerals is the subject of a mining lease, the amount of rent paid by the working lessee in the last working year in respect of that right; and
- (b) Where minerals are being worked by the proprietor thereof, the amount which is determined by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to be the sum which would have been received as the rent by the proprietor in the last working year if the right to work the minerals had been let, and the minerals had been worked to the same extent and in the same manner as they have been worked by the proprietor in that year; and
- (c) In the case of a mineral wayleave, the amount of rent paid by the working lessee in the last working year in respect of the wayleave."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
Mr. NEWDEGATEBefore passing the Report stage of this Resolution, I should like to point out that under this Mineral Duty they are very seriously taxing industry. At the beginning of these proceedings the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave out that he did not wish to tax the enterprise of people who had developed minerals in this country. In the neighbourhood in which I live instead of there being a large number of dukes who are receiving royalties for their minerals, and of which we have heard a good deal in the House and in the country, there is a very large proportion of owners of land who have developed their own minerals and are working them at the present time. I will only mention one case, that I am sure will be of some interest to the House, and possibly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer; that is the case of Sir Alfred Hickman, who bought a mineral estate in Warwickshire and developed it. He has got a very large business there and a very nourishing business, all owing to his own enterprise. He bought the land owing to his enterprise; villages have been created, houses have been built and a large amount of employment has been given in a particular district in Warwickshire. There are other parts of that county in which proprietors have also developed their minerals in the same way. Under this Resolution, although owners of land have laid out large sums in developing minerals, they are now to be taxed as if they were only lessors of the minerals. I beg before the House passes this Resolution to point out as earnestly as I can that they are taxing industry, and surely that is not in the interests either of this country or of the working classes of this country.
§ Mr. SAMUEL ROBERTSI would remind the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd-George) of what he said when the deputation from the Mining Association waited upon him with regard to the Mineral Rights Duty It was perfectly clear what the right hon. Gentleman said at that time was that he did not intend to tax industry, that is the colliery proprietor, who has in many cases bought the coal, and that coal had become the capital of the company. Therefore, any tax that he puts on that capital must be a tax on the industry. On the occasion of the deputation, after alluding to the burdens which had been put on this 927 industry, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd-George) said:—
Therefore I fully recognise that we ought to avoid, in seeking contribution from the mineral wealth of this country, placing in our Bill any new burden upon colliery proprietors who risk their capital and have got to face all those difficulties. That I admit at once, and my object was to impose this share of the burden upon those who have not risked their capital, upon those whose sole share and interest in the mining interest is the receipt of either rent or royalty.The right hon. Gentleman clearly draws a distinction in the people that he means to tax. He meant to tax the people who have received royalty, and that is the alteration which he has made in this Bill, but at the same time he is going to tax the people. As my hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) said just now, who have developed the minerals? They have spent money in purchasing the mineral, and the mineral has become part of the capital of the company. If you put a tax upon the mineral so purchased you distinctly put a tax on the industry itself, and that is what the right hon. Gentleman said he did not mean to do. I have risen to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, before the new mineral Clauses are taken, to give special consideration to these cases, because unless they are dealt with in a different manner he will certainly be taxing the colliery proprietors.
§ Mr. A. J. BALFOURI think the Government will probably agree that the subject which can be raised on this Resolution is one of first-class importance, and ought to have a full discussion. For my part, if the Government can come to some arrangement by which it might be understood that the new mineral Clauses should tome on at a reasonable hour, I think it would be more convenient to take the discussion upon the Clauses than upon the Report of a money Resolution. If the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to defer Clause 15, he would probably minister to the convenience of the Committee. I would suggest that we conclude the discussion on the Report of the money Resolutions and defer to the more convenient season the full discussion of the principles involved in the proposals of the Government.
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd-George)I think the right hon. Gentleman's request is a very reasonable one. These are very important matters, and I agree that it is desirable that they should be discussed on the actual Clauses rather than upon this stage, which is, after all, more or less formal. It is purely a Resolution to enable us to proceed. I am afraid that if we proceeded in the order in which the proposals appear on the Paper it might be inconvenient both for the Opposition and for the Government. It is desirable that all these Mineral Clauses should be discussed together, and at a convenient hour; therefore I assent at once to the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that Clause 15 should be postponed. But I do not think that that would quite meet the right hon. Gentleman's view, because it would perhaps have the effect of bringing on the Mineral Clauses at a late hour to-night. Hence my suggestion is that we should postpone the Mineral Clauses. Clause 25 would then be first. That deals with an important point, but I do not think it should take the whole evening, therefore I suggest we should put the Mineral Clauses after the new Clauses. Several of these are, on the whole, agreed Clauses, being in the nature of concessions to the Opposition. I suggest therefore that we proceed with Clause 25 and the new Clauses tonight, and take the Mineral Clauses perhaps first to-morrow. But I am entirely in the hands of the Opposition with regard to that; I am only desirous of meeting their views.
§ Mr. BALFOURI speak with some diffidence, as I have not the whole framework of the new Clauses in my mind; but I think the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, which I am sure is made in a conciliatory spirit, will be acceptable to all sides of the House.
§ Question put, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 121; Noes, 54.
929| Division No. 732.] | AYES. | [3.26 p.m. |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles |
| Barker, Sir John | Boland, John | Byles, William Pollard |
| Barnard, E. B. | Boulton, A. C. F. | Channing, Sir Francis Allston |
| Barnes, G. N. | Bowerman, C. W. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Branch, James | Clough, William |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lamont, Norman | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Reddy, M. |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lundon, T. | Rees, J. D. |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lynch, A. (Clare, W.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Findlay, Alexander | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Fullerton, Hugh | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Glendinning, R. G. | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Callum, John M. | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | M'Micking, Major G. | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Maddison, Frederick | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marnham, F. J. | Seely, Colonel |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. | Sheehy, David |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Snowden, P. |
| Healy, Timothy (Michael) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Molteno, Percy Alport | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Henry, Charles S. | Mooney, J. J. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Muldoon, John | Trevelyan, Charles Philip |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Murphy, John (Kerry, East) | Vivian, Henry |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Norman, Sir Henry | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Jardine, Sir J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Keily, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Jowett, F. W. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Joyce, Michael | Parker, James (Halifax) | |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Partington, Oswald | |
| King, Alfred John (Knutstord) | Paulton, James Mellor | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Norton and Mr. Fuller. |
| Lambert, George | Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Fletcher, J. S. | M'Arthur, Charles |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Forster, Henry William | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Haddock, George B. | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashtord) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Heaton, John Henniker | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Helmsley, Viscount | Renton, Leslie |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Hills, J. W. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanier, Beville |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Hunt, Rowland | Starkey, John R. |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. | Kimber, Sir H. | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lambton, Hon. Frederick William | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Younger, George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Newdegate and Mr. S. Roberts. |
| Fell, Arthur | Lonsdale, John Brownlee |