HC Deb 15 September 1909 vol 10 cc2151-284

Order for consideration, as amended, read.


moved, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clauses 5, 10, 12, 15, 16, and 52, standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol, North."


On that Motion, may I ask a question on a point of Order? I wish to ascertain how we stand in regard to this matter. I am aware that, under the Order under which we are acting, no Debate can take place on any Motion which is moved from the Treasury Bench. We have, under the Motion, two days allotted for the Report stage. I think eight days were allotted for the Committee stage. I submit, as a point of Order, that, if this Motion is carried, we shall pass into Committee. That will give possibly another day for the Committee stage, and deprive us of part of that time for Report, which is set down by order of the Government and by the Motion of the House as the amount of time we ought to have for its consideration. I beg to ask you whether, as we are unable to debate this Motion, the carrying of it will not destroy in itself the Order under which we are acting, and by which we are to have two full days for the Report stage?


The answer to that is that if the House goes into Committee again on this Bill, and sits in Committee during the greater part of the day, the order that two days be allotted to the Report stage would be, although not technically, in reality frustrated, and two days would not be given to the Report stage. But the procedure is permissible, and is, indeed, provided for, because, in the Reso- lution allocating the time, special arrangement is made that "no Motion to recommit the Bill shall be received unless moved by the Government," and, therefore, clearly the Resolution contemplates that a Motion for recommittal may be made. It is not a question for me what the effect may be. It is a question of equity, and I think the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see how much time is occupied in Committee. If a very long time is occupied there may be a good case for asking the Government to give another day for the Report stage. That can be done by again putting the Bill down, but not as the First Order.


May I ask your ruling on this. The Bill having been called on, and you being in the Chair we have now entered on one of the allotted days for the Report stage. I beg to ask, if once we enter on an allotted day for the Report stage, and then go into Committee, even, though nothing may have been done on the allotted day beyond calling the title of the Bill, would it not be impossible, after having been in Committee, to resume the Report stage? And will not the result be in effect that we shall only have one day for that stage?


I do not think that is so. As I said just now, it is always open to the Government to put down the Irish Land Bill as the Second Order—the first effective Order—but the Second Order on the Paper, and that will not make it an allotted day. It is only when it stands first on the Orders of the Day that it is an allotted day. Therefore, assuming, for the sake of argument, that the recommittal stage lasts till 11 o'clock to-night, and, therefore, practically occupies the whole day (which although set down for Report will not actually be taken up by the Report stage), hon. Members interested in the matter will have a very good equitable case to put to the Government to ask them for another day.


May I ask, is it competent for me to move an Amendment? The Standing Order provides that the Motion shall be put without Debate, but nothing is said about Amendments.


The Standing Order says I must "forthwith" put the Question. If I put the Question "forthwith" I shall be unable to see the hon. Member, and to call upon him to move any Amendment.

Question put, "That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clauses 5, 10, 12, 13, 16, and 52, standing in the

Division No. 660.] AYES. [3.40 p.m.
Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. O'Dowd, John
Alden, Percy Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
Barker, Sir John Harrington, Timothy O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)
Barnard, E. B. Hart-Davies, T. O'Shee, James John
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Parker, James (Halifax)
Beck, A. Cecil Healy, Maurice (Cork) Partington, Oswald
Bellairs, Carlyon Healy, Timothy Michael Philips, John (Longford, S.)
Berridge, T. H. D. Helme, Norval Watson Pointer, J.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Power, Patrick Joseph
Boland, John Higham, John Sharp Raphael, Herbert H.
Bowerman, C. W. Hogan, Michael Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
Bryce, J. Annan Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Reddy, M.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Rees, J. D.
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Jardine, Sir J. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Roe, Sir Thomas
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rose, Sir Charles Day
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Jowett, F. W. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Clancy, John Joseph Joyce, Michael Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Clough, William Kavanagh, Walter M. Scanlan, Thomas
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Seely, Colonel
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kilbride, Denis Shackleton, David James
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Sheehy, David
Crosfield, A. H. Lewis, John Herbert Sherwell, Arthur James
Cullinan, J. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Curran, Peter Francis Lundon, T. Snowdon, P.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lynch, A. (Clare, W.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)
Delany, William MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Strachey, Sir Edward
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) M'Micking, Major G. Summerbell, T.
Dillon, John Markham, Arthur Basil Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Duffy, William J. Marnham, F. J. Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Masterman, C. F. G. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Erskine, David C. Menzies, Sir Walter Thorne, William (West Ham)
Essex, R. W. Middlebrook, William Verney, F. W.
Esslemont, George Birnie Molteno, Percy Alport Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Evans, Sir S. T. Mooney, J. J. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Everett, R. Lacey Morgan. J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Watt, Henry A.
Falconer, J. Morrell, Philip White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
Farrell, James Patrick Muldoon, John White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Fenwick, Charles Murnaghan, George White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro Murphy, John (Kerry, East) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Ffrench, Peter Myer, Horatio Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Flynn, James Christopher Nannetti, Joseph P. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Gilhooly, James Nicholls, George Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Gill, A. H. Norman, Sir Henry Young, Samuel
Ginnell, L. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Fuller.
Glendinning, R. G. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Magnus, Sir Philip
Baicarres, Lord Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) Moore, William
Banner, John S. Harmood- Fell, Arthur Morpeth, Viscount
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Gordon, J. Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Bowles, G. Stewart Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Peel, Hon. W. R. W.
Butcher, Samuel Henry Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Illingworth, Percy H. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Joynson-Hicks, William Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Stanier, Beville
Clark, George Smith Kimber, Sir Henry Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Clive, Percy Archer Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Thornton, Percy M.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Courthope, G. Loyd Lonsdale, John Brownlee Younger, George
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Arthur, Charles TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount
Craik, Sir Henry M'Calmont, Col. James Valentia and Mr. H. W. Forster.

name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol, North."

The House divided: Ayes, 153; "Noes, 47.

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr. CALDWELL (Deputy-Chairman) in the chair.]


  1. CLAUSE 5.—(Amendment of Provisions as to Percentage.) 8,167 words, 3 divisions
  2. cc2173-8
  3. CLAUSE 10.—(Repayment of Advances Under Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1906. 6 Edw. 7, c. 37.) 1,706 words
  4. cc2178-96
  5. CLAUSE 12.—(Interpretation.) 7,560 words, 4 divisions
  6. cc2196-217
  7. CLAUSE 15.—(Limitation on Amount of Advances to Tenant Purchasers.) 9,541 words, 4 divisions
  8. cc2217-57
  9. CLAUSE 16.—(Prohibition of Advance.) 17,570 words, 5 divisions
  10. cc2257-71
  11. CLAUSE 52.—(Grant of Superannuation Allowances by Congested Districts Board.) 5,768 words, 2 divisions
  12. cc2271-84
  13. NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment and Withdrawal of Proposals of the Estates Commissioners.) 5,374 words