HC Deb 23 November 1909 vol 13 cc150-61

(1) For the purposes of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Acts, as amended by this Act, each of the following administrative counties, that is to say, the counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway, Clare, and Kerry, shall be a congested districts county, and the four rural districts of Bantry, Castletown, Schull, and Skibbereen, in the county of Cork, shall together form one congested districts county.

(2) The council of the administrative county shall be the local authority of the congested districts county, except in the case of the congested districts county in the county of Cork.

(3) For the purposes of this part of this Act there shall be a joint committee of the councils of the rural districts of Bantry, Castletown, Schull, and Skibbereen, consisting of two persons chosen out of their body by each of the said councils, and that committee shall be the local authority of the congested districts county in the county of Cork.

(4) No electoral division shall, after the passing of this Act, be or form part of a congested districts county, unless it is included in a congested districts county constituted under this Section.

(5) The Local Government Board for Ireland may make rules regulating the election, meetings, and procedure of the said joint committee.

Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "Clare."

Mr. BIRRELL moved "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Although the word has a warlike sound I think I shall be able to show, having regard to the Amendments which I propose to move, that after all this is not quite so formidable as it looks. I am, of course, very sorry that in another place they did not agree to what was the Report of the Dudley Commission: that Clare should be included as a whole. [MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: "Put it back."] It is only fair, however, to say that I find in that Royal Commission Report that Clare was included with some hesitation. Of course, it will not be denied that Clare is a county differing in many important respects, especially having regard to the congestion within its borders, from other counties which are included under this Bill. At the same time, in view of its geographical situation, surrounded as it is by counties included in the congested area, it is rather unfortunate that we should have this difficulty. It was found impracticable to obtain the necessary consent to the inclusion of Clare as a whole, on the ground that it was not, properly speaking, a congested county or one which ought to be included within the congested area. It therefore became a question whether some portions of Clare ought not properly to be so included. We had not much time to determine what those portions were, but it was agreed that Ballyvaghan, Ennisky-mon, Kilrush, and Killadysert should together form one congested districts county. After that I made careful inquiry of the Local Government Board in Ireland, who know a great deal more about the poverty of Ireland than any other Board and much more than anybody else, having the Poor Law administration in their hands, and they were unanimously of opinion that Scariff and Tulla were as much entitled to be included within the provisions of this Bill as Ballyvaghan, Enniskymon, Kilrush, and Killadysert. Therefore the proposals we make amount to this—that six rural districts, namely, Ballyvaghan, Enniskymon, Kilrush, Scariff, Tulla, and Killadysert, shall together form one congested districts county. That excludes two rural districts—Ennis and Corofin—from the new congested district area; but the whole of the sea coast of Clare will be within the jurisdiction of the Congested Districts Board. I sympathise with the anxiety of the whole of county Clare to be placed under the beneficent rule and sway of the Board—and it is a tribute to the popularity of the Board that that feeling should exist throughout the whole of the county—but, having obtained the inclusion of two-thirds of the county, which was included only with some diffidence by the Dudley Commission, I think that that ought, at all events for the present, to satisfy even the most grasping and patriotic Clare man. I hope, therefore, the House will support me when I move to substitute "six" for "four" rural districts, and to insert the names "Scariff" and "Tulla."

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND

I do not know who is here prepared to agree with the Amendment of the Lords in this respect. But I lose no time in saying at once that I for one am not going to agree with the Lords. I think that the Chief Secretary and the Government—certainly the Government—have treated the county of Clare extremely badly in this matter. And I must say that when I took up the newspaper in Dublin the other day, after the proceedings in the House of Lords, and found that Lord Crewe had got up in his place and calmly proposed to exclude the greater portion of East Clare, I was more than astonished: I was indignant. I venture to tell the Chief Secretary that my indignation is shared to the fullest extent by every person in the county of Clare, and particularly East Clare. What are the facts of the case? After a long and exhaustive inquiry extending over years, embracing visits to every part of Ireland, and taking evidence in the most exhaustive way, the Commission, presided over by Lord Dudley, issued their report. They recommended unanimously that amongst the new districts to be put under the supervision of the Congested Districts Board should be the whole of the county of Clare. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary seeks to justify the action of the House of Lords in leaving out the greater portion of the county of Clare by saying that the Dudley Commission recommended the inclusion of the whole county with some hesitation. I think if he was going to refer to that he might have quoted the recommendation of the Dudley Commission with regard to the county of Clare. If he had done so he would have informed the House that after very close and careful inquiry, after considering all the circumstances of the case, the Commission came to the conclusion that it was desirable in the general interest to include the whole of the county of Clare in the new congested area. They pointed out that if Clare was not included it would be practically the only county in the West of Ireland that was not so included. Moreover, they pointed out, as regards East Clare, which I represent, that if the congestion there was not so accentuated as in West Clare and other portions of the West of Ireland, it was most important that it should be brought within the operations of the Congested Districts Board, because there there were large tracts of grass land or untenanted land which were absolutely essential for the relief of congestion in other portions of the county of Clare.

Yet, in face of the recommendation unanimously given by this Commission, representative of all the parties in this House, and founded on the closest and most exhaustive inquiry, the House of Lords refuses to include the county of Clare in the new congested area, and we are asked to agree with the action of the House of Lords in this matter. I cannot understand the meaning of this at all. The new congested area comprises nine counties. The new areas agreed to by the House of Lords to come under the sway of the new Congested Districts Board are very large. Yet out of all the immense district recommended by the Dudley Commission, the House of Lords have fixed, and fixed alone, upon this particular district which is represented by me in this House. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] Some one says "Hear, hear." But the Chief Secretary has not explained. I should like to know who it was in the House of Lords that put up Lord Crewe to move the exclusion of East Clare. I venture to say that it was two or three Lords who are landlords in East Clare, and I ask the Chief Secretary to ask Lord Crewe. If I have the opportunity I will ask Lord Crewe myself. I would like the Chief Secretary to find out whether any landlords in East Clare had anything to do with the exclusion. I say if they had it is an outrageous scandal and a disgrace. We say that men interested in legislation in this House, men whose private affairs are concerned, are not to take part in the discussions and divisions in this House. On a Committee of this House a Member would not be allowed to act if the matter for consideration was one in which he himself was personally interested, or if he had any financial interest in it. Yet in the House of Lords we find that some landlords who are directly interested, who have a financial interest in this matter, are allowed to have their way, and are able to have excluded large districts from the operations of this Act simply because they consider that their own lands might be dealt with, and their own financial interests might be interfered with. That is, in my opinion, an outrageous scandal and a monstrous shame. I venture to tell the Chief Secretary perfectly frankly and straightforwardly that if this course is persisted in, and if the whole county of Clare is not included, it will give rise to no end of trouble and disturbance in the county.

I have received to-day communications from Gentlemen representing absolutely the whole population of the district. I have a Resolution which I showed to the Chief Secretary this morning, proposed by the Bishop of Killaloe, and seconded by the chairman and the County Council of Clare at a meeting of the Clare County Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, and this Resolution, proposed and seconded by those Gentlemen—the two most representative and responsible men in the whole county—declares that from their intimate knowledge of the county that the exclusion of this district will cause great trouble and prevent the Congested Districts Board from relieving congestion in the western portion of the county and other districts. From every part of the constituency, from every part of the district, representations have gone forth protesting against the action of Lord Crewe in excluding this district. I venture to say if the Government persist in this Clause they will be simply laving by for themselves much trouble in the future. Imagine how absurd the thing is. Here you are taking not merely a county and dividing it, but you are sub-dividing half a county. East Clare is to be divided into different portions. In one Poor Law Union the people are to be told they will be dealt with by the Congested Districts Board and have the administration of that Board; in another Poor Law Union across the road the people are to be told: "You are not to be dealt with by the Congested Districts Board, you must take your chance in the ordinary way with your landlords." Under these circumstances does any reasonable man in this House expect there will be anything but discontent and dissatisfaction when the people find they are not dealt with as a whole in the county in the same way but that the people in one district have great advantages over the people in another.

We are told sometimes that the county of Clare is really not a congested district at all and that the recommendation to include it in the congested area was only arrived at after hesitation. I really do not know what is the true definition of a congested district, but the holdings throughout the county are miserably small, and in this district you are now excluding there are thousands and thousands of acres of good land practically deserted and bereft of human occupations or habitations. Allow me to give a few figures. There are in this county nearly 2,000 holdings which do not exceed one acre; there are above one acre and not exceeding five acres something between 1,500 and 2,000 holdings; above five acres and not exceeding 10 or 15 acres there are something like 4,000 holdings. If we take the holdings throughout the county which are not more than 30 acres we find that there are between 11,000 and 12,000, and yet in the case of the people who are endeavouring to eke out a miserable existence upon holdings not exceeding one acre in extent—and thousands of them do not exceed five acres—we are told they are not worthy of being dealt with by the Congested Districts Board; we are told that they are not to have any hope of having their holdings enlarged or of getting a share of the large grass lands. Under these circumstances can anyone possibly expect that there will be anything but dissatisfaction and discontent. I say to the Chief Secretary quite plainly that I do not think he believes that this course is the right one. I do not believe that if the right hon. Gentleman took up a strong position the House of Lords would wreck this Bill on the question of whether a few districts in one county in Ireland were to be included within the congested area or not. I am obliged to come to the conclusion that two or three landlords interested in the county of Clare have worked this extraordinary change.

Mr. BIRRELL

No.

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND

May I ask the Attorney-General and the Chief Secretary whether they can speak for Lord Crewe on this point?

Mr. BIRRELL

Oh, yes. I can assure the hon. Member that Lord Crewe had no negotiations, relations, or interviews with any Clare landlords on this question. I cannot tell how other persons may have been influenced by representations from-different parts of Ireland, but the hon. Member is in error—I am as responsible for what Lord Crewe did in this matter in the House of Lords as I am for what is done here—because no influence of any sort or kind has been brought directly to bear upon Lord Crewe by any of the Clare landlords.

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND

I know that there were no Clare landlords at the Conference, but Lord Lansdowne was there. Did any of the Clare landlords approach Lord Lansdowne? Perhaps the Attorney-General can tell us why it was that of all the large areas recommended by the Dudley Commission to be put under the Congested Districts Board this one particular portion of one particular county was singled out.

Mr. BIRRELL

Our great difficulty was to get Clare in at all. The feeling was that it should not be included because it was not, properly speaking, a congested district at all, and we tried to get as much of Clare in as possible. As a matter of fact, I have been the champion of Clare in this matter, and to the extent of two-thirds I have succeeded. Had it not been for such energy as Lord Crewe and I exhibited in regard to this matter no part of Clare would have been included.

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND

Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can state what were the reasons given by Lord Lansdowne and those who objected to the inclusion of County Clare? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] This matter affects my constituency, and I can assure hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench that I will have my say and will not be put down. The more they interfere, just the more will I say, and I repeat that this is no mere coincidence. The right hon. Gentleman says the great difficulty was to get County Clare included at all. Why should there have been this difficulty with regard to Clare when the question of its suitability for inclusion was carefully considered by the Dudley Commission and when they reported favourably? It is said it is not suitable. That was the business of the Dudley Commission, and they are better judges in the matter than Lord Lansdowne or any Gentleman who so strongly objected to the inclusion of county Clare. I do not know whether it is possible to hope that there may be any alteration in this matter or not, but I tell the Chief Secretary, the Attorney-General, who is soon to be a judge and leave us—I am sorry to part with him personally—the Solicitor-General, who, I suppose, will be the Attorney-General in a day or two, and everybody responsible for the government of Ireland that if this is persisted in and the people of this district in Clare are treated with this injustice that so far from tending to settle in any one way the land question in the County of Clare, this Bill, for the injustice it does to a portion of the people, will cause discontent and fresh agitation; and I venture to predict that in a very short time the exclusion of Clare will be altered and the whole county will have to be included in the congested areas. I will make this attempt to alter the injustice which is proposed. I will propose to amend the Amendment of the Chief Secretary by including two other districts in the county. He has moved to include the districts of Scariff and Tulla. I will move to include the rural districts of Ennis and Corofin. If the right hon. Gentleman and the Gentlemen in the House of Lords who have to decide this question pay no respect whatever to what I say, I would ask them at least to pay some attention to the representative men in the county who have spoken in this matter.

Whatever may be thought of what I might say here, I doubt whether there is any man even in the other place who will be inclined to disregard the Bishop of the district, the Most Rev. Bishop of Killaloe, and the Chairman of the County Council. These two gentlemen may be fairly said to represent the feeling of the population, and I would urge the Chief Secretary to use what influence he can in another place so that the wishes of the people may be met and that this injustice may not be done. There is more behind the exclusion of Clare than appears on the surface. Strenuous attempts have been made to blacken the character of the county of Clare. The press of this country have been filled with exaggerated reports of what has happened in Clare. Anything which happens in the county is magnified into a great outrage, and I am really afraid that to some extent the county is being punished for a reputation which it does not deserve. I can only tell the Chief Secretary that so far as I am concerned when I return to Clare next week I will tell the people there that they have been treated with the most infamous injustice and that as it stands they can have no hope of any considerable relief with regard to their land tenure by the passage of this Bill. What makes the matter all the more cruel is there is not a district in the whole of Ireland which has been left so untouched by the Act of 1903 as the county of Clare. In other districts landlords have, to some extent, shown themselves reasonable, or at any rate they have agreed to sell on certain terms. But a large section—the vast majority of the landlords in the county of Clare—have practically refused to sell on any terms at all. The result is that whereas in other parts of Ireland progress is being made with the transfer of land, in the county of Clare there is little or none. We all hoped that the Chief Secretary would adhere to the recommendation of the Dudley Commission and place the county of Clare under the administration of the Congested Districts Board. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman it was most pathetic to watch the anxiety with which the small landholders in this great county looked forward to the day when they would come under the control of that Board. From the moment this Bill was introduced into this House their delight and satisfaction was unbounded, because they felt that under the operations of the Congested Districts Board the transfer of land would proceed rapidly. But at the very moment the people hoped and believed the Bill would become law they found to their astonishment and their horror that of all parts of Ireland which had been recommended for inclusion in the administration of the Board, this portion, and this portion alone, had been struck out by the House of Lords.

No hon. Member representing a constituency treated in this way could do otherwise than enter a strong and emphatic protest. No reason whatever is given for this proposal to strike out county Clare; no arguments have been advanced in justification of it; it is simply put forward with cold brutality, and all I have to say is that from the days of Daniel O'Connell—from the days when Catholic Emancipation was passed—it has never been found easy to ignore county Clare, and the House of Lords even yet may find that, while they are tearing the British Constitution into a thousand pieces, they will not be able to "leave out county Clare." I say to the right hon. Gentleman when next he sees Lord Crewe let him tell the Noble Lord and ask him to tell the Marquess of Lansdowne, with my compliments, that whatever the outcome of this constitutional struggle which is now going on may be, whatever happens to the House of Lords, whether it goes on, or whether it goes down, the county of Clare will be there, and I will take very good care that the farmers and labourers of the county of Clare will look after their own interests, protect their homes and take whatever steps they may consider necessary for the welfare of themselves and their families until the day comes—and it speedily will come—when some Minister will have to come down and admit that the recommendation of the Dudley Commission was right, and the action of the House of Lords in leaving out Clare was wrong.

Mr. ARTHUR LYNCH

The question is not one which affects East Clare alone, because the interests of East Clare and West Clare are inseparable. Moreover, it is not one which affects Clare alone, but the whole of Ireland. I am reminded in this connection that when the American Act of Independence was signed, Benjamin Franklin, who was one of those men with a certain amount of wit, said, "Now, Gentlemen, if we don't hang together we will hang separately," and that is also the position of all the constituencies in Ireland. We say East Clare and West Clare hang together like the representatives of the Nationalist party in Ireland hold together in one indissoluble unity. On this question of leaving out Clare I do not propose to add much, and it would be utterly impossible to do so to the eloquent speech which we have just heard from my hon. and learned Friend. This question of congestion in Clare involves also the question of compulsion, because the reason for excluding one and including the other is to bring it within the operation of this Clause or exclude it. The other day an hon. Gentleman above the Gangway said we were always depending upon and having recourse to one example, but I am able to give a number of cases of landlords who have refused to sell, not only in contravention of the interests of their tenants, but in violation of their own. One is the estate of Charles MacDonnell, New Hall, Ennis, who absolutely refused to sell. Offers were made to purchase and negotiations proceeded up to almost the carrying through of the business when the landlord withdrew from the operation on the ground that he must sell his turbary first. Another landlord refused to sell unless he got 27½ years' purchase, and yet another refused to accept less than 24½ years for his estate which simply consisted of bog. In another place the landlord refused to sell at less than 24½ years' purchase; and then again there is the estate of H. B. Macnamara, of Ennistymon, who has refused to sell; and Lord Leconfield, near Miltown Malbay, is in the same position.

12.0 P.M.

In another place Lord Lansdowne said the landlord regards his grazing lands somewhat in the frame of mind in which a connoisseur regards a fine piece of old china. Men of the stamp of Lord Lansdowne find it a sufficient reason to refuse the just rights of the people that they find an æsthetic delight in the contemplation of their rolling grass lands, while the son of a poor tenant farmer has to choose between two alternatives, one to wrench himself away from his family and his home to seek his fortune in another land, or to live in poverty, eking out a miserable existence in his ancestral home, and when you find that man's case could be met by the extension of benefits, such as including the whole of Clare in the congested districts, that must make an extremely forcible appeal to a man who is so sympathetically inclined to Ireland as the Chief Secretary. The Government has included West Clare in the congested districts, and has excluded a great part of East Clare; but suppose the operations of the Congested Districts Act have full play in Clare, and there is a great desire to give free play to the beneficent operations of that Act, where is the land to be found for the people in West Clare? A man does not like to leave his country, and if he has to migrate it is easier after all to migrate to America, which they call in West Clare the nearest parish of the West, and if there is a real desire to benefit West Clare where is the land to be found to satisfy the needs of the poor landless man, when the great part of East Clare is removed