§ (1) From and after the appointed day, the Congested Districts Board shall consist of the following members:—
- (a) The Chief Secretary, the Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, who shall be ex-officio-members:
- (b) Five members appointed by His Majesty (in this Act referred to as appointed members):
- (c) Nine members representing the congested districts counties, of whom one shall be elected by the local authority of each congested districts county (in this Act referred to as representative members):
- (d) Two paid members appointed by His Majesty (in this Act referred to as permanent members).
§ (2) An appointed member shall hold office for four years and shall be eligible for re-appointment.
§ (3) Each of the permanent members shall hold office during pleasure, and shall be paid by the Board out of the funds at their disposal an annual salary of two thousand pounds:
§ Provided that a permanent member shall not be removed from his office except by an Order in Council, and any such Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent forty days on which that House has sat after any such Order is laid before it praying that the Order may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Order, and it shall thenceforth be void.
§ (4) His Majesty may fill any casual vacancy in the office of appointed or permanent member by appointing a member in the place of the member whose office is vacant.
§ (5) Every existing member of the Congested Districts Board who is not an ex-officio member, or is not appointed or elected under or in pursuance of this Section, shall cease to hold office on the appointed day.
§ Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), leave out "five" and insert "eight."
§ Mr. BIRRELL moved to leave out "eight" and insert "nine."
§ We are now coming to the provisions with regard to the composition of the Congested Districts Board. The theory to start with was that there should be three ex-officio members, nine elected members, and two permanent members. The elected members have disappeared somewhere between here and the other House. They are now abandoned, and the proposal as it appears on the Paper is to constitute a Board of three ex-officio members, eight appointed members, and two permanent members. Eight, three, and two are thirteen, and, although I am in these matters perfectly opaque, and do not quite 142 comprehend why there should be any difficulty to a Board composed of 13 members, still I am bound to confess that that objection to it is widely spread, and I am very anxious there should be full attendances at this Board, and that every member should feel it his duty, as far as he possibly can, to attend it. I am told, and I am bound to say I recognise, that a Board of 13 is not a convenient number. It so happens that we have now practically included Clare.
§ Mr. WILLIAM REDMONDNo.
§ Mr. BIRRELLWell, the greater part at all events, of the County of Clare, is included in the area, though not the best part, of course, and the whole of the counties which were to have the honour of sending the nine representatives who are to be included in the new Board. Although I am animated in this matter by the desire to avoid the number 13, the unlucky number, I feel there is a certain force in the point that, having regard to the extended area, we ought to have nine members, only they will be appointed instead of elected. That will make the number 14. I therefore move to leave out 5 and insert 9. It is a departure from the proceedings which took place in the other place, but, having regard to the fact that Clare is now, barring the omission I have mentioned, practically included within the area, I do not think there ought to be any objection in any quarter to the insertion of the figure 9 instead of 5. That will constitute a Board of 14 members.
§ Mr. DILLONThis Amendment to the proposed Lords Amendment raises the question of the dropping of the representative element of the Congested Districts Board, and that is a claim made by the House of Lords against which I desire to enter my most emphatic protect. The objection shown by the House of Lords and by hon. Members above the Gangway to the representative element is to me most extraordinary and unconstitional. After all, these representatives would have been elected by the County Councils who were constituted by the Tory party, and any Members who are old enough to recollect the Debates which took place when the Bill was before the House will remember the extraordinary prophecies of evil which came from some of the Members of the Tory party. We were told that the new bodies would be examples of corruption and extravagance, and that the ratepayers would be ruined, and the busi- 143 ness of the country disgracefully mismanaged. What has happened? All these prophecies of evil to which we have listened year after year when we were introducing Bills have been absolutely falsified, and the Local Government Board and hon. Members above the Gangway on the Unionist side of the House are obliged to admit that the business is now better done than ever before.
§ Mr. DILLONI say that the business of the county is better and more economically done than it was under the old plan, and that is a lesson showing the stupidity of this continual opposition in every department of public life in Ireland to the representative and democratic principle. I can only say, in reply to what has fallen from the hon. Member for North Armagh, that the moment you give the people authority, religious advocacy and trouble disappears. I regard it as one of the greatest triumphs of the Chief Secretary that a Catholic has been elected in Belfast to teach scholastic philosophy: that is the beginning of peace in Ireland. I only alluded to that in order to point the moral—the responsibility must be fixed on the men who have the responsibility: a Board which is popularly elected is more responsible than a nominated Board. My own belief is that the very best way of smoothing and rendering easy the task of the Congested Districts Board will be to bring in the local leaders and put the responsibility of the work on them Under the original constitution there was ample safeguard for the control of the expenditure of public money. Therefore there is no real reason for saying that there was the least shadow of danger of local men being able to job public money. Let me say this, that after the Councils Bill which hon. Members above the Gangway are not responsible for, but which the Government are responsible for and Lord Macdonnell was responsible for, I cannot understand why objection should be taken by men like Lord Macdonnell to admitting elected members on the Congested Districts Board when they proposed in that Bill to place the entire control and management of that Board in the hands of a council which was pre-eminently an elective body. For my part I do not consider the matter is absolutely vital to the Bill. I do not say it would kill the Bill or that if I had the power I would kill or 144 reject the Bill rather than sacrifice this power, but I say it is another illustration of the incurable distrust of popular control which resides in the other House across the Lobby that they have resisted in this intractable way the elective settlement which I am convinced would lead to the smooth working of the Congested Districts Board. I therefore enter my strong protest against this proposal.
§ 11.0 P.M.
§ Mr. WALTER LONGThe hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House and his Friends offered some advice to the Chief Secretary a few moments ago as to his prospects of gratitude and his chances of finally solving the difficulties which have arisen in Ireland by this Bill, and let me also offer him a little bit of advice, which has, at all events, the advantage of being gratis, and that is that he will find the same experience here that hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway prophesied with regard to other proposals. The hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon), who represents the party, has told him that if he only would associate the popular element with the Congested Districts-Board he would be quite certain, or, at all events, humanly speaking, quite certain, of the success of that Department. We have had a little experience on this matter. The Board of Agriculture and Technical Education in Ireland has popular representation upon it, and in the earlier stages of this Bill we were told by the Government, and on more than one occasion by the Vice-President of that Department, that the powers which it was proposed to give to the elective element on the Congested Districts Board in the future were the same as those enjoyed by the popular control of his Department. I do not think that is quite correct, but it is accurate to say that the Department of Agriculture and Technical instruction has associated with it a considerable popular element representative of the county councils, and during the time that I was Chief Secretary and during the time of my predecessor, and during a very considerable portion of the time of the present Chief Secretary and his immediate predecessor, the criticisms which came from hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway in regard to the administration of the Department were as severe and as frequent as any criticisms addressed to the Irish Government in respect to any branch of their work. Therefore to suggest that by the association of the popular element 145 with this Congested Districts Board you are going to avoid criticism and secure success is to make a suggestion which has no foundation in the experience of the past.
The hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) suggests that we in this House—and in order to make my position perfectly clear, as the Chief Secretary unwittingly but very successfully misrepresented me on the last occasion, when I say we I speak for my hon. Friends on this side of the House—are taking now exactly the same line that we took on the earlier stages of this Bill. We oppose the popular element, not because we have any want of confidence in popular representation, not because we attempt to decry the work that has been done by the Irish county councils. I could not go as far as the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) either in saying that they had done better or more economical work than the grand juries or that they had been more successful than other popularly elected bodies elsewhere, but I admit that they have done their work very well and have been extremely economical, and, subject to this one reservation, that they have excluded from their membership those who represent views different from theirs in politics, I admit that the county councils have done their work well. We have continuously opposed the suggestion that there should be popularly elected bodies on the Congested Districts Board solely because all experience shows that, where you have a body whose business it is to administer and deal with funds which are to be applied to the relief of local difficulties, such as congestion, if you have properly elected bodies you do not bring about corruption or jobbery—we have never made any suggestion of that kind—but you bring about paralysis of administration. If you put representatives of the various county councils on to a body of this kind let the House remember what is the work they will have to perform. They are to be charged with the expenditure of a very large sum of money which is to be spent upon the relief of congestion. It does not mean that we are implying jobbery or corruption or any intention to do anything which is improper when we say that it is inevitable that those who represent particular districts will say, "In our district congestion is worse, we want the most relief, and you must give something to us first."
The result of that will be that you will not have the careful consideration of an 146 abstract character of the claims of the different districts and the possibility of meeting those claims, but you will have constant debates upon the requirements of each district, and finally a sort of solution on the principle of "You scratch my back and I will scratch yours," which will ultimately result in money being spent, not to the best possible advantage but in this district to-day on the understanding that it is to be spent in that district to-morrow, and so on. I do not believe there is anyone who has ever been connected with the administration of Government Departments who will not endorse that view. The Chief Secretary has abandoned that altogether, I am glad to say and he proposes now to add to the nominated members. The number we had anticipated he would suggest was eight. He proposes to make nine. I suppose we cannot quarrel with him for that. He is in the unpleasant position of a dispenser of public patronage, and. no doubt the claims upon his benevolence have been so numerous that he finds eight nominated members would not be sufficient, and therefore he has had to increase, them to nine. He might have done that by reducing the number to seven. He has chosen to do it by increasing rather than decreasing the number. I am one of those old-fashioned people who believe that a small body would be more likely to administer successfully than a large one. I do not believe that you get good administration by adding to the number. I think a Congested Districts Board of eight or nine would be much more likely to do the work successfully and with advantage to Ireland, than a Board of 14. I rejoice in the interest of what I believe to be good administration that the Government have abandoned the representative element of the county councils, not because I and those for whom I speak have any mistrust of properly elected bodies or of the representatives of county councils, but because we believe that, if the work is to be well done, it would be better to adhere to the old model than to depart from it entirely.
§ Mr. MOOREI think on this occasion the protest of hon. Members below the Gangway has been more hollow than usual. What is the grievance? It is that the county councils are not to nominate nine gentlemen. I venture to say that the Chief Secretary will not nominate a single one of these gentlemen without the concurrence 147 of hon. Members below the Gangway. The Board will have control of £250,000. Is the House going to pass this Amendment without knowing who the nine gentlemen are to be? I have known occasions when if there was a proposal to appoint anyone to a position under land legislation none would have been louder than hon. Members below the Gangway to know the name, pedigree, sire, and dam of the man. On this occasion they pass the proposal sub silentio. The nine people are to be appointed by the Chief Secretary, and hon. Members do not inquire who the worthies are to be. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman in making the appointments to see that the minority are protected? Will he give any representation to the unfortunate owners of land who are to be absolutely expropriated? Are these nominated members to represent exclusively the views of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) and his friends? No one is more strongly in favour of popular representation than I am when it goes with popular taxation, but in this case not a penny of the money is collected from the locality. This is a Board appointed to expend Government money. I would much rather have a Government Board if I were sure that the Government would appoint impartially representatives of all interests. Will the Chief Secretary tell us the minority representatives? It is not an unreasonable thing. Are the minority to suffer in this case as he said they were to suffer in other cases?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI never said that they ought to suffer.
§ Word "eight" inserted by the Lords left out, and word "nine" inserted—[Mr. Birrell]—instead thereof:
148§ Mr. BIRRELL moved to agree with the Lords Amendment, to leave out paragraph (c).
§ This Amendment omits the provision for providing representation of the county councils. I have no desire to say anything on this subject. I did the best I could and had the House with me on the original proposal in the Bill. After all the House of Commons counts for something, even when the Liberals have a majority in it. From the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Moore) we could gather what an excellent proposal it was. He rejoiced to note that the House of Lords had destroyed the responsibility that was imposed by the original provisions of the Bill upon the county councils of selecting either from their own number or outside some competent persons to represent them on this Board. Having got rid of that, there was no other course open to the House of Lords but to trust the executive Government for the time being to exercise the patronage. I very much regret the decision of the House of Lords. I believe that the county councils are far better persons, are better qualified, not only than myself but than any possible successor of mine, to whatever Party he may belong, to discharge this important duty. But as the House of Lords will not hear of the county councils, and as there is no other alternative but to fall back on the executive Government of the time being, all I can say is that I shall discharge the duty if it falls to my lot as well as I can. When the hon. and learned Gentleman asks me to name the nine gentlemen, I have not the faintest idea at the present moment of who the nine gentlemen are—not one. I only say that I shall discharge the duty reluctantly which has been imposed on me through the House of Lords not trusting to their own body, for whom in a sense they are responsible and who would discharge this duty far better than any executive officer.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 151; Noes, 78.
149| Division No. 906.] | AYES. | [11.15 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Bytes, William Pollard |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland D. | Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Carlile, E. Hildred |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Bonn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) | Cave, George |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Cawley, Sir Frederick |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Bennett, E. N. | Channing, Sir Francis Allston |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Berridge, T. H. D. | Cheetham, John Frederick |
| Astbury, John Meir | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Baker, Joseph A. | Bright, J. A. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) | Clough, William |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Butcher, Samuel Henry | Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) |
| Barker, Sir John | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles | Corbett, T. L. (Down, Noarth) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hooper, A. G. | Firie, Duncan V. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Horniman, Emslie John | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Hunt, Rowland | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Hyde, Clarendon G. | Rondall, Athelstan |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Idris, T. H. W. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Dobson, Thomas W. | Kerry, Earl of | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Laidlaw, Sir Robert | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) | Lambert, George | Roc, Sir Thomas |
| Elibank, Master of | Lamont, Norman | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis | Rowlands, J. |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Falconer, J. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel |
| Forster, Henry William | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Callum, John M. | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Gretton, John | Maddison, Frederick | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds) | Marnham, F. J. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Gulland, John W | Massie, J. | Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Middlebrook, William | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Moore, William | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Morrell, Philip | Toulmin, George |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morse, L. L. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.) | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Helme, Nerval Watson | Nussey, Sir Willans | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Nuttall, Harry | Wills, Arthur Walters |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Wood, T. McKinnon |
| Hills, J. W. | Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) | |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Mr. Fuller. |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | |
| Holt, Richard Durning | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Hudson, Walter | O' Grady, J. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Jordan, Jeremiah | O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Jowett, F. W. | O' Malley, William |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Joyce, Michael | O' Neill, Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Boland, John | Kavanagh, Walter M. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Keating, M. | Philips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pointer, J. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Crean, Eugene | Lundon, T. | Reddy, M. |
| Cullinan, J. | Lynch, A. (Clare, W.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Delany, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Dillon, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegol, E.) | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | M'Kean, John | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Meagher, Michael | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) | Sheehy, David |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mooney, J. J. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | Muldoon, John | Steadman, W. C. |
| Gilhooly, James | Murnaghan, George | Summerbell, T. |
| Ginnell, L. | Nannetti, Joseph | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Glover, Thomas | Nolan, Joseph | Walsh, Stephen |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Harrington, Timothy | O'Doherty, Philip | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Healy, Maurice (Cork) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | |
| Hodge, John | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain Donelan and Mr. Patrick O'Brien. |
| Hogan, Michael | O'Dowd, John |
§ Lords Amendments agreed to: Leave out Sub-section (2) and insert, "An appointed member shall hold office for five years, and shall be eligible for re-appointment. On a casual vacancy occurring by reason of the death, resignation, or incapacity of an appointed member or otherwise, the person appointed by His Majesty to fill the vacancy shall continue in office until the member in whose place he was appointed would have retired, and shall then retire."
150§ Leave out Sub-section (4).
§ Leave out Clause 46 (Duration of Office of Representative Members and Casual Vacancies).
§ Leave out Clause 47 (Administrative Committee).