§ Mr. MacNEILLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the case of English and Scotch applicants for old age pensions, a comparison has been instituted by the Treasury between the baptismal certificates of the ages of these pensioners and their ages as recorded in the Census of 1841 and 1851; and, if so, whether serious discrepancies have been revealed between the ages of the applicants as recorded in the Census Returns which, in some cases, differ from each other in the baptismal certificates; and whether, under these circumstances, the Treasury will insist on treating as conclusive evidence of the age of Irish applicants the Census Returns in the absence of baptismal certificates?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEWe have no information that the discrepancies suggested in the question do in fact exist.
§ Mr. MacNEILLBut do not discrepancies exist in the baptismal certificates, compared with the other evidence such as it is?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENo; I should not think there is any suggestion in the figures made with regard to the pensions paid that discrepancies do exist.
§ Mr. MacNEILLSo far as the evidence of the census goes it has only been applied to Ireland, and not to England and Scotland?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENo; where necessary it is applied in both cases.
§ Mr. MacNEILLBut it is very necessary in Ireland!
§ Mr. MacNEILLasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that little, if any, reliance can be placed on the census records of 1841 and 1851 in reference to the accuracy of the ages of persons therein recorded, and that these records are faulty and incomplete, since the investigation was made under circumstances which made accuracy impossible; whether, at the passing of the Pension Act, from the knowledge that the census returns were not reliable in the matter of ages, regulations were issued by the Treasury enabling pension officers and pension committees to accept, where applicants for the pension could not procure baptismal certificates, certificates from clergymen, magistrates, and others who had known the applicants for a long period as sufficient proof that they were of ages to render good their claims; whether the effect of the new regulations is that the fate of all who have made claims will hang on whatever the census returns of 1841 and 1851 disclose unless baptismal certificates are forthcoming, and since Irish Catholics cannot produce certificates of baptism, because no records of baptisms and marriages were kept by their Church at that time, members of that communion alone will feel the effect of these new regulations; and whether, under these circumstances, certificates from the census of 1841 and from the census of 1851, which frequently differ from each other as to the age of the same individual, should not be pressed on pension committees by pension officers as conclusive evidence of the age of applicants, nor held on appeal to the Local Government Board as conclusive?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEAny record of age contained in the Census Returns of 1841 and 1851 must depend upon the accuracy of the person who made the statement, and it is quite possible that these records are not wholly dependable, but, in addition to information obtainable from these sources, any reliable documentary evidence is admitted beside baptismal certificates. It must rest with the pension committee and the Local Government Board respectively to decide what is final and conclusive evidence.
§ Mr. MacNEILLCan the hon. Gentleman say, when the pension officer makes these investigations, he has to take the census of 1841 and 1851, and compare the two censuses as to whether there are discrepancies in the ages of the same individual?
§ Mr. MOONEYIs it not a fact that the 1841 census in Ireland is inaccurate; that there are streets in towns which do not appear, and that, application having been made to the Registrar-General in Dublin for information, has been refused?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENo such information has been brought to my notice.
§ Mr. MacNEILLMay I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that these Census Returns are inadmissible as legal evidence in any court? If he has any doubt about it, let him ask the Law officers at his side.
§ Mr. MURNAGHANWhere the evidence consists only of the birth certificate or the Census Return, may I ask the hon. Gentleman if instructions have been given for any other evidence except these two to be received?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEAs I pointed out in reply to the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Donegal, any reliable documentary evidence is taken into consideration.
§ Mr. FLYNNIn the case of Irish Catholics it is almost impossible for them to furnish such evidence. They do not enter the births up in the family Bible like they do in Great Britain—is that fact taken into account?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThat is the very reason why other documentary evidence is accepted.
§ Mr. MURNAGHANWill the right hon. Gentleman receive any evidence except certificates of birth, which are unobtainable in many parishes in Ireland, from applicants for pensions, and who are unable to produce any documentary evidence?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThey must produce some evidence as to age.