§ (1) Every person who pays rent in respect of any land, and every person who as agent for another person receives any rent in respect of any land, shall, on being required by the Commissioners, furnish to them the name and address of the person to whom he pays rent or on behalf of whom he receives rent, as the case may be.
1330§ (2) If any person fails to comply with the provisions of this section, he shall be liable to a penalty under Section fifty-five of the Income Tax Act, 1842, and that section shall apply accordingly, but the penalty shall only be recoverable in the High Court.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI desire to move the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston (Mr. 1331 Cave) to omit the words, "and every person who as agent for another person receives any rent in respect of any land." The object of this Amendment is to ensure that there shall be no power to compel an agent to commit what would be practically a breach of trust towards the man who employs him. I therefore think that the Government would be well advised to abandon this invidious provision.
§ Sir S. EVANSI hope the hon. Member will not press the point. The clause proposes two things. First of all it proposes that the person who pays rent, must he is asked by the Commissioners, furnish them with the name and the address of the person to whom he pays rent, and the second part proposes that any person who deceives the Commissioners shall be liable to a penalty. It is of the utmost importance that before a valuation is made the proper person to be communicated with, namely, the real owner, should be ascertained by the Commissioners, and surely there can be no difficulty at all, where the communication desired by the Commissioners is a communication by which they may arrive at the proper valuation, in providing that any person who is agent for the owner should give the name to the Commissioners.
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
§ Amendments made, in Section (2), after the word "them" ["furnish to them"], to insert the words "within thirty days."
§ At end of Section (1) add "(2) For the purpose of the exercise of their powers or the performance of their duties under this Part of this Act in reference to the valuation of land, the Commissioners may authorise any person to inspect any land and report to them the value thereof, and the person having the custody or possession of that land shall permit the person so authorised to inspect it at such reasonable times as the Commissioners consider necessary."
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThis is, of course, necessary machinery, but there ought to be some further words of protection of the owner of the land. "The person so authorised" is not, I think, sufficient. The person must be compelled to produce a proper authority which the owner of the land can recognise, other- 1332 wise anybody may come along, possibly with no connection whatever with the Commissioners, and, pretending to be their authorised agents, demand to pass over and about the land as he pleases.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSI think the point would be met by putting in, after the words "so authorised," the words "on production of the authority of the Commissioners and in their behalf." I will put the Amendment in that form. It will then read, "(2) For the purpose of the exercise of their powers or the performance of their duties under this Part of this Act in reference to the valuation of land, the Commissioners may authorise any person to inspect any land and report to them the value thereof, and the person having the custody or possession of that land shall permit the person so authorised, on production of the authority of the Commissioners and in their behalf, to inspect it at such reasonable times as the Commissioners consider necessary."
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be added stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. LANE-FOXI move to leave out Section (2). This is not a case like that of Income Tax, in which you impose a penalty because a man inflicts, on his own behalf, a fraud on the Revenue. In this case it will fall on land agents, solicitors, and others of a worthy class who collect rents and make themselves generally useful. I think in such a case the penalty is rather too severe for the offence contemplated. The penalty is either £20 and treble the amount due, or else £50, and I do hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will extend to those people some consideration.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSWe had a discussion on Clause 16 which covered the whole ground. Under that clause, if any owner fails to make a return, he will be liable to this penalty. I only desire to say that in the interests of symmetry the same provision ought to be kept in here.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINFor the sake of symmetry we shall be obliged to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division in order that our conduct on this clause may be consistent with our conduct on Clause 16.
§ Mr. REMNANTIt is rather hard to inflict these penalties on an agent acting for somebody else.
§ Question put, "That the words down to 'If any person,' stand part of the Clause."
| Division No. 474.] | AYES. | [7.30 a.m. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Armitage, R. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Haworth, Arthur A. | Priesney, Sir W. E. B. (Braoford, E.) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Radford, G. H. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Helme, Norval Watson | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Henry, Charles S. | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Richardson, A. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Higham, John Sharp | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brace, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. K. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Branch, James | Hodge, John | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Brooke, Stopford | Hooper, A. G. | Rowlands, J. |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Horniman, Emslle John | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hudson, Waiter | Scarisbrick, Sir T. T. L. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jackson, R. S. | Seely, Colonel |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Jenkins, J. | Shackleton, David James |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Cleland, J. W. | Jones, Wiliam (Carnarvonshire) | Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) |
| Clough, William | Jowett, F. W. | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Clynes, J. R. | Lambert, George | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Lamont, Norman | Summerbell, T. |
| Cooper, G. J. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Lewis, John Herbert | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Crossley, William J. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Thomasson, Franklin |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Maclean, Donald | Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Tomkinson, James |
| Duckworth, Sir James | Macpherson, J. T. | Toulmin, George |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Verney, F. W |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Mallet, Charles E. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Elibank, Master of | Marnham, F. J. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Essex, R. W. | Middlebrook, William | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Morrell, Philip | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Ferens, T. R. | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.) | Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Myer, Horatio | Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) |
| Glover, Thomas | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Partington, Oswald | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Hancock, J. G. | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Pointer, J. |
| NOES. | ||
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gordon, J. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Hill, Sir Clement | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanier, Beville |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hunt, Rowland | Starkey, John R. |
| Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisnam) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Morpeth, Viscount | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Younger, George |
| Forster, Henry William | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Lane-Fox and Mr. Bridgeman. |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN moved in Section (2) after the word "person" to insert the words "wilfully or knowingly." ["If any person fails to comply with the provisions of this section, he shall be liable to a penalty."] I do not think a person should be subject to a penalty unless the authorities have reason to believe that he has wilfully or know-
1334§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 42.
§ ingly failed to comply with the provisions of the section.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSI think one thing is perfectly clear. If the words "wilfully or knowingly" are to come in here, they ought to be in Clause 16. That ought, I think, to have been decided one way or the other. Such words as those proposed are never put into an Act 1335 except in the case of the Income Tax Act. I will only point out here that there could hardly be a failure to comply with the provisions of this section without it being wilful failure. But there would be a difficulty if the words were inserted here and not in Clause 16. I do not shut the door as to what can be done on the Report stage; but the words ought to be considered before they are put in here. Another substantial and practical answer to the request to put the words in is that the Commissioners never do proceed in cases of this kind where the failure to comply with the law has not been wilful or contumelious. If the right hon. Gentleman, after further consideration, thinks the words ought to be inserted, he will have an opportunity on the Report stage, no doubt, to amend this and Clause 16.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI will not press the Amendment at this stage. But let me make an observation about it. Of course, I am going to withdraw it; but I shall be more ready to do so if I am quite certain that I shall have the opportunity on the Report stage of raising this question which the Solicitor-General has so glibly promised. But I am afraid he is promising at the moment that which it
| Division No. 475.] | AYES. | [7.40 a.m. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Elibank, Master of | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Essex, R. W. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Armitage, R. | Evans, Sir S. T. | Maclean, Donald |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Glaustone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Glover, Thomas | Macpherson, J. T. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Hancock, J. G. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Brace, William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Middlebrook, William |
| Branch, James | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Brooke, Stopford | Haworth, Arthur A. | Morrell, Philip |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.) |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Helme, Norval Watson | Myer, Horatio |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Charles S. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Partington, Oswald |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Higham, John Sharp | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Pointer, J. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hodge, John | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Clough, William | Hooper, A. G. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norolk, E.) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Horniman, Emslie John | Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Cooper, G. J. | Hudson, Walter | Radford, G. H. |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Jackson, R. S. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Jenkins, J. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Crossley, William J. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Richardson, A. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Jowett, F. W | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Duckworth, Sir James | Lambert, George | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lamont, Norman | Rowlands, J. |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
§ may not be in his power to give. When Clause 16 comes up on Report stage if may be the hon. and learned Gentleman's night off.
§ Sir SAMUEL EVANSI never have a night off.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINUp to the present time I do not think the lion, and learned Gentleman has taken a night off. But even for the Solicitor-General, I should think, there will come some nights of relaxation. I want to put one point to the Solicitor-General. I cannot turn up the reference at this moment, but the word "wilfully" or "knowingly" was inserted in a previous section.
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEUnder the Reversion Clause.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWas that not an analogous case?
§ Mr. LLOYD-GEORGEI did look at that.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI ask leave to withdraw the Amendment?
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 42.
| Scarisbrick, Sir T. T. L. | Thomasson, Franklin | wilkie, Alexander |
| Seely, Colonel | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Shackleton, David James | Tomkinson, James | Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Simon, John Allsebrock | Toulmin, George | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, M.) |
| Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) | Verney, F. W. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Walsh, Stephen | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Strauss. E. A. (Abingdon) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Summerbell, T. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) | |
| Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Whitehead, Rowland | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) | |
| Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| NOES. | ||
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gordon, J. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesan) |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B'y St. Edm'ds) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Hill, Sir Clement | Stanier, Beville |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Starkey, John R. |
| Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Courthopc, G. Lloyd | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Morpeth, Viscount | Younger, George |
| Forster, Henry William | Morrison-Bell, Captain | |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Remnant. |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |