§ MR. BOWLES (Lambeth, Norwood)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state how many and which Departments have issued regulations or instructions with regard to the administration of the Old-Age Pensions Act; whether all these regulations or instructions will be laid upon the Table of the House; and, if so, when?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe regulations made by the Treasury in conjunction with the Local Government Board and the Postmaster-General and the Local Government Boards for Scotland and Ireland under Section 10 of the Old-Age Pensions Act (which have been in force as provisional regulations since 20th August last) are being signed to-day, and will be presented to both Houses of Parliament forthwith, in accordance with that section. Financial instructions to pension committees and sub-committees have been issued by the Treasury with regard to the expenses which may be incurred by them and the remuneration of their clerks. I will lay a copy of those on the Table. No other instructions have been issued, except by way of directions given by public Departments to their own officers. These I am not prepared, for reasons which I explained yesterday, to lay on the Table. Apart from the Regulations and Instructions, properly so-called, I understand that the Local Government Board (and also the Local Government Boards for Scotland and Ireland) have addressed advisory Memoranda to councils which are required by the Act to appoint pension committees. My right hon. friend the 473 President of the Local Government Board is, I understand, prepared to lay those issued to councils in England and Wales, and my right hon. friends the Secretary for Scotland and the Chief Secretary will no doubt take the same action with regard to the Scottish and Irish Memoranda, if they are asked to do so.
§ LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any instructions have been issued to the pension officers in connection with the Old-Age Pensions Act; whether such instructions were secret, and, if so, why; and whether it is proposed to lay such instructions upon the Table of this House.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEApart from the instructions to pension officers contained in the Second Schedule to the Regulations, the only instructions given to pension officers are directions of a Departmental character regulating the manner in which they are to discharge their official duties. Such directions necessarily contain a large amount of matter which it would not be in the interest of the public service to publish, and they are, in accordance with the general rule respecting Departmental instructions of this nature, to be regarded as confidential. For this reason, I am not prepared to lay particulars of the instructions which have been given upon the Table.
§ LORD R. CECILI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any instructions have been issued to pension officers directing them in estimating the means of a claimant not to take into consideration furniture to the value of £30; if so, under what powers such instructions were issued; and whether they intend to enable the Government of the day to make any other, and, if so, what, alteration in the conditions for a pension.
§ MR. HAROLD COXAt the same time may I ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue has issued instructions to pension officers to deduct £30 from the value of furniture possessed by claimants for 474 pensions, estimating the means of such claimants; and under what clause of the Act this deduction is authorised.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI will, if my hon. friend the Member for Preston will permit, reply to this and the Question in similar terms in his name at the same time. Departmental instructions had been given to pension officers by the Board of Inland Revenue that in the preparation of their Reports upon the means of claimants they may disregard furniture and personal effects actually belonging to and used by the claimant, not exceeding £30 in value. This instruction has been given under the general powers which a public Department possesses to direct its own officers. It is, of course, in no way binding on the pension committees who, if they are dissatisfied with the report, are quite at liberty to refer it back to the pension officer for further investigation. The duty of estimating the means of a claimant rests, under the Act, not upon the pension officer but upon the committee, subject to appeal to the Local Government Board. It is thought, however, that it would be a waste of labour to conduct meticulous inquiries into the precise value of ordinary articles of furniture, household utensils and clothing in the possession of claimants in every case. Such information will, however, always be obtained if called for by the committee. The interpretation of Section 4 of the Act rests with the Committees, subject to appeal to the Local Government Board, and there is no intention on the part of the Government to prejudge questions which may arise under that section or to withhold from committees any information which they may deem to be necessary for the proper discharge of their statutory duties.
§ LORD R. CECILAre the pension officers bound to obey these instructions on pain of dismissal?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGECertainly they are expected to obey the instructions given by the Board of Inland Revenue.
§ LORD R. CECILSeeing any amendment of the Act such as the right hon. 475 Gentleman has made by his instructions would clearly have been out of order and could not have been made by the other House, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman claims, as a Minister of the Crown, to make modifications in an Act of Parliament which the House cannot now consider?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI do not agree with the noble Lord as to the interpretation of the Act. These instructions are purely a liberal, fair and, I think, commonsense interpretation.
§ MR. HAROLD COXasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the instructions to the pension officers were to take into account all food and clothing, and whether it was more meticulous to take into account all furniture than all food and clothing.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI am not sure to what my hon. friend is referring. If he will refer me to the section I will see.
§ MR. HAROLD COXI refer to the instructions already published in the Daily Telegraph.
§ MR. CLYNES) (Manchester, N.E.asked whether the Government had been informed by the noble Lord that it was his intention to assist in removing this restriction making it necessary to give these instructions to the pension officer.
§ LORD R. CECILasked the Prime Minister whether he would give any opportunity to discuss this very serious invasion of the rights of the House.
§ [No Answer was returned.]