§ MR. TOULMIN (Bury, Lancashire)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with the old-age pension scheme, he can give approximately the number of married couples where the husband is over seventy years of age and the wife under seventy years of age; and will he consider the advisability, where the wife is 1325 over sixty years of age and under seventy years, of taking the income of husband and wife jointly into account in deciding the eligibility of the husband for a pension.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,) Carnarvon BoroughsI have no precise information as to the number of married men in the United Kingdom of seventy years of age and over whose wives are under that age, but the number may be estimated approximately at 113,000. I will note my hon. friend's suggestion for consideration along with others when the details of the scheme come up for discussion.
§ MR. CATHCART WASON (Orkney and Shetland)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the old-age pension scheme, where a husband and wife are living separate by mutual consent, the full pension of 5s. a week will be paid to each of them; and whether, when husband and wife have agreed to live separately, and the husband or wife has an income in excess of the amount which would entitle him or her to the benefit of the pension, but the other has no income, the husband or wife, as the case may be, who is destitute will be entitled to the full pension of 5s. a week.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEThe proposal is that the reduction in the amount of pension in the case of married couples, and likewise the disqualification on the basis of joint income, shall be applicable only to the case of such couples actually living together.
§ MR. CATHCART WASONIs that not rather encouraging old couples to live apart?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI do not think so.
§ MR. J. DEVLIN (Belfast, W.)I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the Budget proposals with regard to old-age pensions, he will direct that a short Memorandum be prepared setting forth the leading facts in connection with the working of the 1326 old-age pensions schemes in Germany and in New Zealand, for the information of Members and the public.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI will consider the hon. Member's suggestion.
§ MR. J. DEVLINI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the number of persons in Ireland over seventy years of age who would be likely to benefit under the proposed scheme of old-age pensions, including the estimated numbers of married and unmarried persons; also the number of such persons who would be debarred owing to their being in receipt of Poor Law relief; and the estimated average amount per head and total amount which would be payable in Ireland under the scheme.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEI am afraid that I have not information at my disposal which would enable me to answer the hon. Member's Question fully. It is estimated that the number of persons in Ireland of seventy years of age and upwards is 173,359, and that the number who would be qualified for pension is 87,585; but the hon. Member should bear in mind that the figures are estimates and that no exact information is attainable.
§ MR. CATHCART WASONI beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he could state approximately what would be the probable cost of admitting aged persons now in poorhouses or workhouses to the benefit of the old-age pension fund provided it could be shown to the satisfaction of the pension officer that proper provision would be ensured for their comfort by their friends or relatives.
I beg also to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that any system of old-age pensions must be to the benefit of local rates, he will take into consideration the desirability of allowing aged persons now in poorhouses or workhouses or in receipt of outdoor relief, on abandoning any claims on parish relief, to receive the benefits of the pension fund.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEPerhaps my hon. friend will allow me to answer these 1327 Questions together. The additional cost for a full year of admitting persons at present actually in receipt of Poor Law relief to the pension scheme is estimated to be approximately—
I have no basis for estimating what would be the financial effect of the proviso suggested in the latter part of the second Question.
£ For indoor paupers 750,000 For outdoor paupers 2,250,000 3,000,000
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWhen shall we have the Old-Age Pension Bill in our hands? It would be of great convenience to our proceedings.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY, (Mr. ASQUITH,) Fifeshire, E.It cannot be circulated until it is introduced.
§ MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWhen is it to be introduced?
§ MR. ASQUITHI hope very soon; not next week, but probably the week after.
§ MR. CATHCART WASONAre we to understand that these questions will receive consideration from the Government?
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEMuch depends on the Report of the Poor Law Commission.