HC Deb 01 July 1908 vol 191 cc777-9
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD (Liverpool, West Derby)

called the attention of the Speaker to an omission from Votes and Proceedings which were circulated each day among Members; and upon which the journals of the House were based. There was no record of an Amendment moved by him, and accepted by the Government in Committee on the Old-age Pensions Bill yesterday. The Amendment was to leave out the word "payable" and insert the word "receivable." He also thought there was an incorrect entry in Votes and Proceedings in regard to what occurred at the fall of the guillotine. It stated that at half past ten o'clock the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the order of the House of 17th June, to put forthwith Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given. He submitted that those words meant that notice must have been given before half-past ten. There was a considerable amount of excitement at the fall of the guillotine and some misunderstanding; and it was presumed that no notice had been given of one of the Amendments put by the Chairman. Could they have an assurance that notice was duly given? If so, they would be satisfied.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member is making a general speech. What is his point?

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said he desired to know whether he would be in order in moving that this omission and error in Votes and Proceedings be rectified.

MR. SPEAKER

In other words, the hon. Member is appealing from the decision of the Chairman of Ways and Means to me on the second point.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

Not exactly, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER

In regard to that point, it is quite clear that I have no control whatever over what occurred in Committee; and I presume the Chairman would not have put the Question unless he was acting, or thought he was acting, under the direction of the House as contained in the order which the hon. Member quoted. With regard to the first Question, I think the hon. Member is in error in supposing that the Votes and Proceedings are, or attempt to be, a complete record of what occurs in Committee. They are nothing of the kind. There are a great number of Amendments which are never recorded in the Votes and Proceedings. The only record of such Amendments is to be found in the amended Bill itself. The only Amendments recorded in the Votes and Proceedings are those which terminate in a division of the Committee and those under consideration when progress is reported. But in the case of Amendments which are accepted by the Committee or withdrawn no record is kept in the Votes and Proceedings. The attempt to keep such a record would be a novel course and would encumber the Votes and Proceedings. If the hon. Member wishes to alter Votes and Proceedings in any respect, he can do so by giving notice and moving when he gets the opportunity.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

I desire to thank you, Sir, for your Answer.