§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [MR. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he had no desire to add any observations to those he had already made in support of his Amendment to omit Sub-section 3.
§ Amendment proposed—
§
In page 1, line 17, to leave out subsection (3)."—(Mr. Watson- Rutherford.)
§ Question proposed, "That Sub-section (3) stand part of the clause."
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD, interrupting, said he hoped that before the vote was taken a reply would be given on behalf of the Government. He had refrained from repeating his questions and arguments with the object of saving the time of the Committee. He hoped the Financial Secretary of the Treasury would take the opportunity of giving the Committee the explanations to which they were entitled.
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid that he did not consider the hon. Member had meant the Committee to take his argument seriously—[OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh !']—but if he had been mistaken, he would endeavour to reply to the argument. The hon. Gentleman's statement 446 was to the effect that if any question arose on this clause, instead of its being taken to an ordinary Court of Law, a new authority, viz., the Treasury, would be called in to decide the point. The hypothesis upon which the hon. Member had based his argument against the clause was altogether illusory, and the result which he had described could not arise. The class of case which would arise would be between a local authority and the Local Government Hoard or the Treasury, and the Treasury would be the deciding authority in the dispute.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that the hon. and learned Gentleman had hardly been fair to him in reference to his Amendment, and the observations he was obliged to make upon it. He took objection to the clause seriously, and not from imaginary reasons. He thought that a discussion of a clause in such a Bill which might bear different interpretations would be useful. As a matter of fact, between 300 and 400 Acts of Parliament could be dealt with under this sub-section. He could put a case to the hon. and learned Member which would show that the difficulty to which he referred was not imaginary. Let the Committee suppose a question arose as to a sale of land in Liverpool, the Corporation of Liverpool could not dispose of any of that land without the consent of the Treasury, which consent could only be obtained by presenting a memorial to the Lords of the Treasury. But as he understood this Bill, that consent, instead of being obtained from the Lords of the Treasury would in future be obtained from the Local Government Board. That, he believed, might involve expensive litigation as to whether the 447 Treasury or the Local Government Board had consented to the sale. He thought the Clause most objectionable, and he strongly opposed it.
§ Question put.
§ Committee divided:—Ayes, 303; Noes, 17. (Division List, No. 79.)
449| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd | Higham, John Sharp |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Agnew, George William | Cory, Clifford John | Hodge, John |
| Alden, Percy | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hogan, Michael |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Cowan, W. H. | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Crean, Eugene | Hooper, A. G. |
| Armitage, R. | Crombie, John William | Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Crosfield, A. H. | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Crossley, William J. | Hudson, Walter |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Dalziel, James Henry | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jackson, R. S. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galw'y | Jenkins, J. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Dolan, Charles Joseph | Jones,David Brynmor(Swansea |
| Barnes, G. N. | Duckworth, James | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Duffy, William J. | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire |
| Beale, W. P. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Joyce, Michael |
| Beauchamp, E. | Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Bell, Richard | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Benn,John Williams(Devonp'rt | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo. | Elibank, Master of | Kincaid-Smith, Captain |
| Bennett, E. N. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Bertram, Julius | Everett, R. Lacey | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Billson, Alfred | Fenwick, Charles | Lambert, George |
| Black,ArthurW.(Bedfordshire | Ferens, T. R. | Lamont, Norman |
| Boland, John | Findlay, Alexander | Law, Hugh Alexander |
| Balton, T. D. (Derbyshire.N.E.) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Flynn, James Christopher | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Brace, William | Fuller, John Michael F. | Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich) |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Fullerton, Hugh | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral) |
| Brigg, John | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Levy, Maurice |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Gilhooly, James | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brooke, Stopford | Gill, A. H. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh) | Ginnell, L. | Lundon, W. |
| Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) | Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | Lupton, Arnold |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Glendinning, R. G. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Glover, Thomas | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Griffith, Ellis J. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Gulland, John W. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. |
| Baxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles | Hall, Frederick | M'Callum, John M. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Halpin, J. | M'Crae, George |
| Cairns, Thomas | Hammond, John | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | M'Killop, W. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh | Maddison, Frederick |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hart-Davies, T. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Harwood, George | Marks,G. Croydon (Launceston |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R- R. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Massie, J. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Meagher, Michael |
| Clough, W. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hazleton, Richard | Menzies, Walter |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hedges, A. Paget | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Helme, Norval Watson | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Mond, A. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen,W.) | Montagu, E. S. |
| Montgomery, H. H. | Rees, J. D. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, B. |
| Mooney, J. J. | Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Thomas.David Alfred(Merthyr |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Rickett, J. Compton | Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset |
| Morse, L. L. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Thorne, William |
| Morton, Alpheua Cleophas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Tomkinson, James |
| Murphy, John | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Toulmin, George |
| Murray, James | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Ure, Alexander |
| Napier, T. B. | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) | Verney, F. W. |
| Nicholls, George | Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd | Vivian, Henry |
| Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r | Robinson, S. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rogers, F. E. Newman | Wallace, Robert |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Rose, Charles Day | Walsh, Stephen |
| Nuttall, Harry | Rowlands, J. | Walters, John Tudor |
| O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Walton, Joseph (Barnsley) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wardle, George J. |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne | Waterlow, D. S. |
| O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) | Seaverns, J. H. | Weir, James Galloway |
| O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) | Seddon, J. | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Shackleton, David James | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Mara, James | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Whitehead, Rowland |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sheehy, David | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| O'Shee, James John | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Wiles, Thomas |
| Paul, Herbert | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) | Snowdon, P. | Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn) |
| Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,Eye | Soares, Ernest J. | Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull,W |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Stanger, H. Y. | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Steadman, W. C. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Pollard, Dr. | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wilson, P. W. (St Pancras, S.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Price,C. E.(Edinburgh,Central) | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Woodhouse,Sir J.T.(Hudd'rsfid |
| Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.) | Sullivan, Donal | Young, Samuel |
| Radford, G. H. | Summerbell, T. | |
| Rainy, A. Holland | Sutherland, J. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | |
| Reddy, M. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F. | Doughty, Sir George | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Fell, Arthur | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Balcarres, Lord | Finch, Rt. Hon. George N. | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Fletcher, J. S. | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Forster, Henry William | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Haddock, George R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hamilton, Marquess of | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Carlilc, E. Hildred | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Helmsley, Viscount | Starkey, John R. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanurk) |
| Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Kennaway,Rt.Hn.Sir John H. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | |
| Craig,Captain James(Down,E.) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Watson Rutherford. |
| Cross, Alexander | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.) |
Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn"—(Mr. Whiteley)— put, and agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time and passed.