HC Deb 22 March 1904 vol 132 cc440-9

4. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1904, for certain Miscellaneous Legal Expenses."

Resolutions read a second time.

First Resolution.


said he wished to move to reduce this Vote by £100. In Committee some discussion took place in regard to Osborne. He noticed that in the new Civil Service Estimates this. Vote had been put into an item by itself. He did not think that that was in accordance with the pledge given from the Treasury Bench twelve months ago, when the Committee was distinctly promised that it should no longer appear in the Civil Service Estimates but would be transferred to the Army and Navy Estimates, where the cost properly belonged. He wanted to ask the noble Lord in charge of these Estimates whether he could not see his way, as had been promised by the representative of the Admiralty a few days ago, to put in an amended page in the Civil Service Estimates to carry out the promise given to the Committee twelve months ago. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '£7,300,' and insert £7,200.'"—(Mr. Whitley).

Question proposed, "That '£7,300' stand part of the said Resolution."

LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)

said that, unfortunately, he had not by him the report of last year's debate, as he did not know the hon. Gentleman would raise the question. They had no other option than to submit the Supplementary Estimate in the manner in which it was now before the House. As to the propriety of putting Osborne House on a separate Vote, he submitted that that question could be more properly discussed when the Estimates for 1904–5 were under consideration. The pledges which had been already given to the House on the subject would be fulfilled.


said he wished to ask whether any part of the expenditure connected with Osborne House was borne on the Votes for the Navy and the Army.


said that under Statute Osborne House was maintained by the Office of Works.


asked if that applied to the entire annual expenditure.


said he understood that the Secretary of State for War would have no objection to the amount spent in connection with the Army on Osborne House appearing on the Army Votes.


said that the noble Lord stated that by Statute the expense of Osborne House was charged

to the Office of Works. If that were so, how was it that £60,000 was charged in the Navy Votes in connection with Osborne House. Surely the noble Lord was under some misapprehension. There appeared to be a mystery in connection with the matter which ought to be solved. A new Vote was put on the Estimates for Osborne House; and it had not been submitted to the Public Accounts Committee. The so-called explanation of the noble Lord only led to further confusion. Would the noble Lord deny that money was charged on the Navy Votes in respect of Osborne House?


said that the site of the stables had been set apart for the purposes of the Navy, but they were entirely distinct from Osborne House.


said that the distinction which was drawn was a very fine one. He still failed to understand why a new Vote, which was not submitted to the Public Accounts Committee, should be set up.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 215; Noes, 148. (Division List No. 68.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin Univ Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.
Allsopp, Hon. George Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Doughty, George
Anson, Sir William Reynell Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A (Worc. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Arkwright, John Stanhope Chapman, Edward Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Arrol, Sir William Clive, Captain Percy A. Duke, Henry Edward
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Coates, Edward Feetham Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt, Hn. Sir H Cochrane Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Bailey, James (Walworth) Coghill, Douglas Harry Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cohen, Benjamin Louis Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas
Baird, John George Alexander Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Faber, George Denison (York)
Balcarres, Lord Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready Fardell, Sir T. George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Cripps, Charles Alfred Fisher, William Hayes
Bartley, Sir George C. T. Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Flannery, Sir Fortescue
Bignold, Arthur Crossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile Flower, Sir Ernest
Bigwood, James Dalrymple, Sir Charles Forster, Henry William
Blundell, Colonel Henry Davenport, William Bromley Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.)
Bond, Edward Denny, Colonel Fyler, John Arthur
Brassey, Albert Dickinson, Robert Edmond Galloway, William Johnson
Brotherton, Edward Allen Dickson, Charles Scott Gardner, Ernest
Bull, William James Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Garfit, William
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow Dimsdale, Rt. Hn. Sir Joseph C. Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Royds, Clement Molyneux
Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.) Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.) Russell, T. W.
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Goschen, Hon. George Joachim Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Graham, Henry Robert Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.
Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury Macdona, John Cumming Seton-Karr, Sir Henry
Grenfell, William Henry M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Gretton, John Majendie, James A. H. Simeon, Sir Barrington
Groves, James Grimble Martin, Richard Biddulph Sloan, Thomas Henry
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Hambro, Charles Eric Mildmay, Francis Bingham Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside
Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford) Milvain, Thomas Spear, John Ward
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'th Moore, William Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset
Haslam, Sir Alfred S. Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs
Hay, Hon. Claude George Morrell, George Herbert Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Heath, James (Staffords., N.W. Morrison, James Archibald Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Helder, Augustus Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W. Mount, William Arthur Thorburn, Sir Walter
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Thornton, Percy M.
Hickman, Sir Alfred Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hogg, Lindsay Newdegate, Francis A. N. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside Nicholson, William Graham Tuff, Charles
Hoult, Joseph Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Houston, Robert Paterson Pemberton, John S. G. Tuke, Sir John Batty
Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Percy, Earl Valentia, Viscount
Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pilkington, Colonel Richard Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheff'ld
Hudson, George Bickersteth Platt-Higgins, Frederick Walker, Col. William Hall
Hunt, Rowland Plummer, Walter R. Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton
Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse Pretyman, Ernest George Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Pym, C. Guy Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Randies, John S. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W.(Salop. Rankin, Sir James Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Kimber, Henry Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne Wilson-Todd, Sir W. H. (Yorks.)
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Reid, James (Greenock) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Laurie, Lieut.-General Remnant, James Farquharson Wood, James
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Renwick, George Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monmouth) Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks., N.R. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham) Rolleston, Sir John F. L,
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter
Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Round, Rt. Hon. James
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Craig, Robert Hunter (Lanark) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)
Allen, Charles P. Crombie, John William Furness, Sir Christopher
Asher, Alexander Cullinan, J. Gilhooly, James
Ashton, Thomas Gair Dalziel, James Henry Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Hammond, John
Bell, Richard Delany, William Harwood, George
Black, Alexander William Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway Hayden, John Patrick
Blake, Edward Devlin, Joseph (Kilkenny, N.) Helme, Norval Watson
Boland, John Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.
Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Brigg, John Dobbie, Joseph Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)
Broadhurst, Henry Donelan, Captain A. Horniman, Frederick John
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh) Doogan, P. C. Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Duffy, William J. Hutchinson, Dr. Charles Fredk.
Burke, E. Haviland Dunn, Sir William Jacoby, James Alfred
Caldwell, James Ellice, Capt E. C (SAndrw'sBghs Joicey, Sir James
Cameron, Robert Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Campbell, John (Armagh, S.) Esmonde, Sir Thomas Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton Farquharson, Dr. Robert Jordan, Jeremiah
Causton, Richard Knight Farrell, James Patrick Joyce, Michael
Cawley, Frederick Fenwick, Charles Kearley, Hudson E.
Clancy, John Joseph Field, William Kilbride, Denis
Condon, Thomas Joseph Flynn, James Christopher Kitson, Sir James
Labouchere, Henry O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.) Schwann, Charles E.
Langley, Batty O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Shackleton, David James
Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cornwall) O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Leamy, Edmund O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Leng, Sir John O'Dowd, John Sheehy, David
Levy, Maurice O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Lewis, John Herbert O'Malley, William Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Lloyd-George, David O'Mara, James Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Lough, Thomas O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Soares, Ernest J.
Lundon, W. Parrott, William Strachey, Sir Edward
Lyell, Charles Henry Partington, Oswald Sullivan, Donal
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) Tennant, Harold John
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Price, Robert John Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)
M'Crae, George Rea, Russell Thomas, J. A (Glamorgan Gower
M'Fadden, Edward Reddy, M. Wason, Jn. Cathcart (Orkney)
M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Weir, James Galloway
Markham, Arthur Basil Redmond, William (Clare) White, George (Norfolk)
Mooney, John J. Rickett, J. Compton White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Rigg, Richard White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Moulton, John Fletcher Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Murphy, John Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Yoxall, James Henry
Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South) Robson, William Snowdon
Nussey, Thomas Willans Roche, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whitley and Mr. Wallace.
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Roe, Sir Thomas
O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Rose, Charles Day
O'Brien, Partick (Kilkenny) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Bill read a second time and committed.

Second Resolution.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

said this was the first time this Vote had come upon the Estimates, and in order to give the hon. Member in charge of that Vote an opportunity of stating whether this amount covered what was to be expended or whether some further sum would be required next year, he moved that the Vote be reduced by £100.

Amendment proposed— To leave out the sum of '£18,800,' and insert the sum of '£18,700.'"—(Mr. Labouchere.)

Question proposed, "That '£18,800' stand part of the said Resolution."


said the works which this Estimate was intended to cover was the work from the Duke of York's steps westward. The extension eastward depended on the passage of the Vote for Metropolitan Improvements which was on the Paper.

MR. FLYNN (Cork County, N.)

criticised the increase in the revised, as against the original, Estimate. He expressed the opinion that the money spent on London was too lavishly spent, and thought these Votes should be scrutinised in the closest possible way. In this particular case he had walked over the district and had been unable to imagine even how such a sum could possibly be spent. His own idea was that the so-called improvements would be a disfigurement to the fine avenue know as the Mall. He could not see why the revised estimate should be three times the amount of the original.

Third Resolution.


asked whether, since the discussion on this Vote, the Secretary to the Treasury had considered the suggestion that all debates and proceedings affecting Ireland should be collected and published separately at the end of the session. The practice was adopted with regard to certain of the public Departments, and the Irish debates were kept in a separate form by the Irish Office. He understood the additional cost would be very small, and he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would give a favourable answer.


said that since the matter was discussed in Committee he had given his attention to it. The hon. Gentleman was correct in his statement that extracts from The Debates were published at the end of the session for various Departments. The Irish Office, too, provided special volumes for themselves, but not under this Vote. He had decided to give an order that, starting at Easter, the Irish debates should be kept separate, and at the end of the session bound in the manner suggested. This would be done as an experiment for the session to see whether the separate volumes proved to be a matter of utility, and to ascertain how the proposal worked out in the matter of cost. He could not see his way, however, to distribute the copies free at the end of the session, as was done with the daily editions or ordinary volumes; that would be going much beyond the terms of the contract, but he would consult the authorities as to whether three or four copies could be placed in the Library. Many complaints were made of the increases in the Stationery Vote, but the House should note that whenever the Estimates were under discussion proposals were made involving extra expenditure. If Members required further records of the proceedings of the House—frequently of their own speeches—and alterations in the way in which The Debates were produced, he hoped they would not mind being called upon to vote the extra expenditure involved.


thanked the hon. Member for his promise, and said that if he would look into the matter he would find that the cost of supplying free copies would be very small.

SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)

moved a reduction of £100 in order to call attention to the great delay which arose in connection with the printing of local Acts. Local Acts, until they received the Royal Assent, were printed by the various agents for the promoters, but they had then to be printed by the King's printers. The Acts had afterwards to be exceedingly carefully examined, and as the number of examiners was small great delay ensued. Either there should be more examiners, or the local Acts through all their stages should be printed at the promoters' expense by the King's printers, instead of by private printers. Private Acts were frequently of great importance to largo local interests and to Government Departments, and complaints were constantly being made of the delay in the printing. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— To leave out '£31,000,' and insert '£30,900.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey.)

Question proposed, "That £31,000 stand part of the said Resolution."

MR. CATHCART WASON (Orkney and Shetland)

asked whether the concession with regard to the binding of The Debates was to be confined to Irish questions, or whether it would extend also to Scotch and Welsh matters. It would be extremely inconvenient if Irish debates alone were to be published in a separate form, and it would also, to a great extent, complicate the proceedings of the House. The better way would be to publish separately the debates affecting the different parts of the Kingdom, and bind them in a compendious volume afterwards.

MR. J. H. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

asked whether it was possible to accelerate the reporting and printing of Hansard. In this respect the British Parliament was vastly inferior to many of the Colonial Parliaments, particularly to the Canadian Parliament, every Member of which received on his breakfast table the report of the previous night's debate. If that was possible in Canada, surely something approaching thereto was possible in the Metropolis of the Empire. By the time the copy of Hansard was received, Members had lost interest in the debate of which it contained the report. About ten days elapsed before the daily parts were available, and Members who preferred the volumes had to wait from three to six weeks. He hope I the Secretary to the Treasury would endeavour to accelerate the pace at which the copies were supplied.


said he would make further inquiries as to whether the issue of The Debates could be accelerated. The progress was doubtless slow, but they had the terms of the contract to deal with. He would, however, do his best in the matter. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland was apparently labouring under a misapprehension. There was no intention of making any difference in the copies now issued; the only alteration was that at the end of the session there would be issued a volume or volumes containing extracts relating to Ireland from the volumes of Hansard already published. Having made that announcement, a demand for a similar concession with regard to Scotch and Welsh deflates was immediately made. He could not give an answer on that point at once; but he would consider the matter between this and Easter. As far as the question raised by the hon. Member for Somersetshire was concerned, that had already been brought to his notice and he was doing all he could in the matter.

MR. BLAKE (Longford, S.)

thought there ought to be no difficulty whatever in regard to getting the local Acts. He agreed that the hon. Member had got himself into rather a false position by having agreed to supply the Irish debates separately.