§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI beg to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of calling attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the refusal of the Irish Government to dismiss a constable at the present ime discharging constabulary duties in the depôt of the Royal Irish Constabulary, Phoenix Park, who has by the admission of the Chief Secretary given perjured evidence, resulting in the conviction of innocent men in courts of justice in Ireland, and the danger to the moral of the Royal Irish Constabulary and to the personal liberty of the subject involved by the retention of this man's services.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI am obliged to examine these questions before I put them to the House. The hon. Member speaks of this as an urgent matter. I understand it is a matter which took place in -July last, while the House was sitting, and was then discussed.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDIt is going on now.
§ * MR. SPEAKERAttention must be brought to these matters at once. The whole object of this Rule is not that something which happened a long time back and has continued since, but that some comparatively recent matter which there has not been an opportunity otherwise of raising, should be made the subject of debate as an urgent public matter. This matter was discussed in the House.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLNo, Sir.
§ MR. WILLIAM O'BRIENMay I point out that it is only today that the Chief Secretary has refused to dismiss this man?
§ MR. MACVEAGHAt Question time I today the Home Secretary announced that an English policeman in the same position got five years penal servitude.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLWill you allow me to say that to have a man of this kind in the public service is a continuing danger? This day only was the matter brought to actuality. I have read all the debates in reference to it, and in no case has the right hon. Gentleman refused to dismiss this man. On the contrary, he has dismissed two of his confederates. I was amazed at hearing that he was still in the force. I have not sprung this matter on the House, for I communicated with the right hon. Gentleman in regard to it some days ago.
§ MR. WYNDHAMOn the point of order. On the 15th July, in reply to a Question. I stated that the names asked for were Sergeant Keegan and Constables Anderson and Reid. Anderson remained at the depôt; the others accepted the alternative of resigning. The alternatives were discussed in this House in Committee of Supply two whole days.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI most positively deny that the dismissal was discussed.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe matter was brought to the notice of the House by a Question and an Answer which showed that this man was retained in the service of the Crown. That was so far back as the 15th July, and it also appears that there were opportunities for discussing the matter after that date. I do not think that it is one of the things that can be the subject of a Motion of this sort. It cannot be contended that it is an urgent matter.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLFresh incidents alter the case. I would remind the House what took place in the courts of justice in London yesterday, when a sentence of five years penal servitude was passed on a perjured policeman.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI cannot allow this to be discussed. What took place in London at another trial cannot affect my judgment. If this were admitted as an urgent matter, then any matter that had happened three months before, and which the House has had an opportunity of discussing, might be brought forward as an urgent matter.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI am amazed at the action of right hon Gentlemen opposite. The First Lord invites us to move the adjournment, and yet we are refused permission. Let me remind you, Sir, that since the discussion nine counties in Ireland have been proclaimed, and the police swearers have been let loose on the people. Let us suppose a constabulary viper were let loose on the House——
§ * MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! The hon. Member has addressed himself to the point, and said all that could be said upon it. He is now addressing himself to other matters. I must ask the hon. Member to accept my ruling.
§ MR. SWIFT MACNEILLI accept your ruling fully, but I wish to call attention to a MotionmadeonMarch23rd, 1893, when Mr. Dunbar Barton moved the adjournment of the House to call attention to the danger to public peace 636 and the security of property in Ireland caused by the condonation of serious crime by the Executive.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI cannot inquire into the history of all these cases. I have stated what my ruling is.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI desire to ask a Question——
§ * MR. SPEAKERI have already heard the hon. Member who proposed the Question. He is satisfied that I have given him a patient hearing, and I cannot allow this to go on. There must be order.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDWith great respect, Mr. Speaker——
§ * MR. SPEAKERI cannot allow the hon. Member to proceed, unless it is on a point of order.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI do rise to a point of order, Sir. I simply desire to put one Question as to your decision.
§ * MR. SPEAKERHas the Question reference to a matter on which I have not yet given my decision?
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDrose again.
§ MR. SPEAKERwas understood to call on Mr. Brodrick, who accordingly came to the Table.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI wish to assure you, Sir, that my only object is to speak on a point of order.
§ * MR. SPEAKERWhat is the point of order? Has the Question of the hon. Member anything to do with a matter already decided?
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDNo, Sir, it has no reference to your decision in this matter. I simply, with great respect—[cries of "Name"]—I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that it is not my intention to dispute your ruling. I merely rise to a point of order. Surely I may do that.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI assure the hon. Member I am as jealous as he can be for the privileges of the House. But the hon. Member must know that it is 637 contrary to order, after I have given a decision, that that decision should be challenged. If the hon. Member were allowed to rise and argue the matter over again, of course that would be contrary to order. If the hon. Member rises to a point of order for the purpose of calling in question my ruling——
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI have not tried to do so.
§ * MR. SPEAKERIf the hon. Member assures me that he is not going to question my ruling on the point of order already decided, and that he is going to raise some other point of order, of course I shall hear him.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDMy object, Mr. Speaker, in rising to ask the Question was simply to assure myself of what your ruling was. At present, Sir, I do not understand your ruling, and I submit with great respect that I am entitled, respectfully and in an orderly manner, to ask you a Question in explanation of the ruling which you have given, in order that I myself may fully understand what that ruling was. The Question I desire to put is—and this ends the whole matter—do I understand that your ruling is that a Motion, under the Rules of the House, cannot be accepted as urgent raising the question of the action of the Irish Government with regard to an officer, who is admittedly a perjurer?
§ * MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member has hardly acted up to the pledge which he gave.
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI think I have.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThis in my opinion is not a definite matter of urgent importance which can be raised on a Motion of this kind. I have gone to the verge of patience and forbearance. If the hon. Member persists—[the remainder of the sentence was inaudible, in the great uproar on the Irish Benches].
§ MR. WILLIAM REDMONDThis is quite another matter on which we are entitled to be heard.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI have decided the matter.