HC Deb 14 November 1902 vol 114 cc1038-91

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[MR. J. W. LOWTHER, (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Clause 18—

DR. MACNAMARA (Camberwell, N.)

moved the omission of sub-Section (1.) He said that the sub-Section, in effect, defined all night school work as higher education, which was not merely absolute nonsense, but dangorous nonsense. At least 75 per cent. of the night school work in this country was purely elementary. The Government might see fit to call it higher education, but it could not be made higher education by calling it so, and to call it so would have a most dangerous effect. The Committee of Council's Report for the present year, signed by the Duke of Devonshire and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, said: "As in previous years, the principal subjects of instruction in evening schools under the Code were the elementary subjects—reading, writing, and arithmetic." Then the Report went on to say that 100,696 scholars qualified for the grant in arithmetic; 60,000 in writing and composition, 56,000 in reading and writing combined, and 28,000 in reacting and recitation. The Report for the previous year also stated that the elementary subjects of reading, writing, and arithmetic were more taught than any other in the evening schools. In 1900, 107,000 scholars qualified for the fee grant in arithmetic, 63,000 in writing and composition, 58,000 in writing and reading combined, and 29,000 in reading and recitation. There were hundreds of columns in the Educational Blue-books which bore out his argument, and the inspectors all admitted that the night school work was mainly of a purely elementary character. Dr. Williams, for instance, two years ago reported that while the evening schools continued to do good work, it was impossible to be blind to the fact that much of the time allotted to instruction in science was spent in teaching the elements of reading and writing. Mr. Saumarez said that the evening schools in country districts, particularly in Gloucestershire, could scarcely be called science schools, as their work was practically confined to reviving the dry bones of elementary instruction. Mr. Freeland, reporting from one of the northern districts, said that the great bulk of the night school work must remain purely elementary; while Mr. Danby, writing from the south-east district, said the majority of evening scholars attended the classes in order to make up their deficiences in elementary subjects, and to regain what they had forgotten of their school learning. There were men absolutely illiterate who had moral courage enough to sit down among lads, and in one case a man of forty years had joined a school so that he might be able to read the cricket scores in the Brighton Argus next summer. It was clear from all these reports that the great bulk of night school work was, and must remain, of an elementary nature, and, therefore, he impressed on the Government the extreme danger of the definition in the Clause. As to the financial effect, that would not make any difference with regard to county boroughs, which could raise as much money as they liked for elementary education, but it would put a rather heavy burden on the money at their disposal for other kinds of education. With the aid of a small grant from the Exchequer they had to provide for technical instruction, the development of higher education, and the training of pupil teachers, out of the rates, and if to that were to be added the provision of elementary night schools it would mean overburdening the amount of money at their disposal. He was told the other night that all he cared for was elementary instruction. If that were so he would hail with satisfaction this proposal of the Government, because it would leave so much more money free for elementary education by transferring the burden of these schools to the secondary education fund. But it was doing a serious injury to higher education, and, therefore, he opposed it. It was vitally essential to keep the night school in close touch with the day school; they must not have the two divorced, otherwise the children leaving the day school would never find their way into the night school. It might be all right in the county boroughs and rural areas, where there would be practically one authority, but in the 140 municipal boroughs with over 10,000 population and the sixty-one urban districts with over 20,000 population, there would be no coordination of education, because the authority would be a divided one. This difficulty had arisen because of the enormous changes made in the Bill, and he would suggest to the Government that they should drop the definition Clause right out. It was not wanted now, and the Secretary to the Board of Education, recognising that a great deal of the work was elementary, could supply the local authorities with two codes—a night school code for elementary work and a night school code for higher work.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 28, to leave out sub-Section (1)."—(Dr. Macnamara.)

Question proposed "That sub-Section (1) stand part of the Clause."


said this matter was not being discussed for the first time. The hon. Member for North Camberwell had no doubt advanced a formidable array of reasons why evening schools should continue to be regarded as public elementary schools.


Some of them.


said the Government thought it was very desirable that there should be a definition of a public elementary school, and that definition they had endeavoured to put into this Clause. The present condition of the evening schools was very clearly and fully described by the late Vice-President of the Council in the debate which took place on the Education Estimates last year, when he described the evening schools as the most chaotic part of the whole of our chaotic system. The Government hoped that in the future adults would not have to go to evening schools in order to obtain education which they ought to have got in the public elementary day schools. It could not be said that the system described by the hon. Member was a satisfactory system. It was a reflection on the working of our elementary schools that so large a proportion of the evening continuation classes should be made up of adults who wanted to learn to read a newspaper. The Government hoped that state of things would be remedied, and that a very much smaller proportion of the work done in the evening schools would be of an education elementary character. As the Clause stood, there was noting to prevent elementary education being given in the evening schools. It was desirable that schools so miscellaneous in the character of their teaching, and so miscellaneous in the age of the persons who received that teaching, should be separated from the public elementary day schools, which were intended to provide the best education they could devise for boys and girls who had to go forth to the work of life. It must be borne in mind that some of the most valuable work of these evening schools was carried on outside the range of elementary education, and was not entitled to be paid for out of the rates, but was paid for out of the rates before the Cockerton judgment. The Government wanted to give full power to the local authorities to adapt the evening schools in their areas to the needs of their districts. He thought that the municipal authorities who would have the power to raise a penny rate under Clause 3 would not be slow to exercise that power to meet the wants of the population. He hoped that the local education authority would find no great difficulty in securing that elementary education should work on into higher elementary and secondary education with the smoothness that was desired to be effected by this Bill. The grants made to these evening continuation schools were liberal enough. Of course not less than 25 per cent, of the expenditure had to be provided out of the local contributions, but with the assistance now contemplated he did not think they would be starved, that the elementary education given in them would not be adequate to the requirements of the population, or that the higher education would in any way be found to be deficient for the wants of the particular area. The object of this Clause was really to differentiate the various classes of schools. They could not divide the work of one evening school into elementary and secondary. They must regard the evening schools as a whole, and give the local authority full power to deal with them. He could not help thinking that the Clause as it stood would promote smoothness of working both for the local authority and the Department, and the efficiency of the education given in the schools.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

said the time at their disposal for discussion was very limited indeed, and he would, therefore, be as brief as possible. But he desired to point out that under the guise of a definition Clause they were introducing a substantial and important change. Technically, he admitted they were carrying out the Cockerton judgment and perpetuating what the Cockerton judgment declared to be the law. 'But for many years before that judgment was passed these schools were treated as elementary, and, therefore, in reversing their position they were making a new departure under the guise of an interpretation Clause. He had listened with interest to the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Education in defence of the Clause, but they could not ignore the fact that the largest part of the education given in most of the evening schools of the country was elementary, and it would have been a far simpler plan to have either divided the elementary from the secondary education, or else to have invited the secondary authority to delegate the control of so much as was elementary to the elementary authority, which he sure they would be willing to do. The hon. Gentleman had expressed a hope that secondary education would have ample provision made for it, and that elementary education would be so improved that the need for giving it in night schools would not continue. But those who were acquainted with the conditions of rural life well knew that for some time to come, at all events, many children in our rural districts would, unless our educational system was screwed up to a much higher point, leave the day schools imperfectly furnished with a knowledge of elementary subjects. Any clergyman who took an interest in school work would tell them that unless evening schools were provided the children would relapse into ignorance after leaving the day schools. They must adapt their system to that state of things and endeavour to keep young people between fifteen and seventeen years of age in touch with the elementary teachers. He was sorry that the Government did not realise the true facts of the case. There were three reasons why he objected to the scheme of this definition Clause. The first reason was that this education was elementary, and would continue to be elementary. What was the use of calling a thing by another name? It was elementary education before the Cockerton judgment, and the Cockerton judgment had not altered the facts. Secondly, the elementary part of the education given in these evening schools ought to be under the authority which controlled elementary education. That was common-sense. But under this Clause they were creating the overlapping and conflict of authority which the Bill was intended to remove. Lastly, there was the question of expense. It was common ground that their greatest need was to develop secondary education. Under this Clause they would take a large and costly branch of education and throw it over to secondary education. By doing so they made it less likely that the higher branches of secondary education could be provided for out of the rates. Fear of an increase in the rates would be the dominant feeling in many counties, and, as elementary education must be provided for, it would be secondary education that would go to the wall. That in itself was conclusive against this change, and in the interests of secondary education as well as of the children whose education had been neglected and for whom evening schools were so much needed, he earnestly hoped that the Committee would not approve this definition Clause.

SIR JOHN GORST (Cambridge University)

said that the evening schools used to be under two separate Departments of the Government and two separate local authorities. They were under the Science and Art Department and the Board of Education until the Cockerton judgment, which decided that no evening school could be a public elementary school if it taught persons above the age of childhood anything else than elementary instruction, gave the Board of Education an opportunity of putting an end to the chaos. During the last year or two these schools had ceased to be public elementary schools and had become schools for higher instruction. It was true that in the schools of higher instruction which took the place of the evening elementary schools, a great deal of elementary instruction was given; and it was a great disgrace to our elementary system that it should be necessary to teach again to young persons of seventeen the things which the public had already paid for them to learn. But this instruction was only given to prepare the pupils for technical education. Under a Minute issued by the Board of Education, power was reserved to School Boards to carry on evening schools for teaching elementary subjects to children; but in only twenty cases had the power been exercised. Now that the evening schools had been unified, it was proposed by this Amendment to establish again two classes—elementary evening schools and higher evening schools. Nothing could be more pernicious, because it would reintroduce the old confusion where there were two local education authorities. It would reintroduce the very system which he described as chaos in this House two or three years ago. The mischief was that the two authorities would overlap and establish rival schools, and in order to attract scholars they would teach not what the people needed to be taught, but what they wanted to learn; all sorts of inducements in the way of recreations would be offered to entice scholars to one school or the other. If the Amendment were carried it would not effect the object of its supporters, because without a definition of "evening schools" the law as laid down in the Cockerton judgment would prevail. It would undo all the good which in the last two years had resulted from the consolidation of the evening schools, and it would reintroduce chaos. He was astonished at the description given by the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen of the secondary education given in the country districts. It was not, except in some benighted regions of the country perhaps, the mere reopening of the village day schools in the evening.


I know a case within thirty miles of London.


said that there were many benighted districts within 30 miles of London. In the very sparsely populated county of Cambridgeshire every young person had within reach a technical school in which metal work, basket work, and the like were taught. That was the sort of evening school that was wanted. It was not desirable to cover the country with evening schools for the purpose of teaching persons to read the newspaper so that they might have better access to the sporting intelligence. They wanted to provide proper evening schools where the instruction already received in day schools was carried to a higher level, and where technical instruction could be given to the people who deserved and needed it.

(12.55.) MR. GEORGE WHITE (Norfolk, N.W.)

said the right hon. Gentleman had no doubt pictured an ideal state of things, but the fact remained that there were hundreds of thousands of young people over the age of fourteen in need of elementary instruction, and if a hold were to be obtained over these young people it was most necessary to keep up their connection with the ordinary day schools. Were they now to put obstacles in their way of getting practical instruction, or should they help them? That was the point the Committee had to decide. As to the suggestion that these boys and girls ought not to need such instruction, it might be worth considering how far the Education Department Code was responsible for the defective way in which they were turned out. Our boys and girls unfortunately left the elementary schools at a much earlier age than was to be desired; they left at a period before they began to appreciate the advantage of knowledge, before even they appreciated the necessity of putting into practice the limited instruction they had received. Many at once entered on manual occupations in which they needed not to exercise their talents, except, perhaps, for the purpose of reading a newspaper, and it was not until they were seventeen or eighteen that they began to appreciate the necessity of reviving their limited educational acquirements. Was it well, then, to exclude them from the opportunity of doing so? This was one of the most important questions the Committee had ever discussed. He felt it was absolutely necessary that these young people should be kept in some sort of relationship with the day-school organisation. He had had some little experience of the training of young people in day schools, and he found that if there was between the ages of fourteen and sixteen a breaking off of these connections, it was extremely difficult to get them renewed. If, on the other hand, the connections were maintained unbroken, the boys and girls made friends with the teachers, good companionships were formed, and the elementary education gradually progressed into the secondary stage. If the Prime Minister had had practical acquaintance with some of these schools, he would have shown more sympathy with the desire to maintain them. No doubt at one time, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had said, a very chaotic condition did exist, but the local authorities could easily overcome that. In his own city they had succeeded to a very large extent by co-operation between the School Board and the Technical Education Committee. He did not see why there should be any danger of overlapping, now that they had one authority under the Bill. There were two classes of young people they ought to cater for—those who, by reason of their ability, and the keenness of their desire for education, desired to avail themselves of the technical and secondary schools, and the still larger number who in their school days had not appreciated their somewhat limited opportunities of education and still required, therefore, instruction in the three R's. He did feel that the Committee were undertaking a very serious responsibility in not so arranging that the hundreds of thousands of young people who were willing to improve themselves in elementary education should not be deprived of future facilities. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that the School Boards had not availed themselves of the facilities which former Acts had given them in regard to the establishment of evening schools, but the regulations issued by the Board of Education were entirely responsible for that. He sincerely hoped that the Prime Minister would either delete this sub-Section or accept his more moderate Amendment which was on the Paper.

MR. HENRY HOBHOUSE (Somersetshire, E.)

said he was entirely in sympathy with the hon. Member as to the evening continuation schools; but his belief was that the sub-Section would not discourage these evening schools. The County Council of his own county had found it to be perfectly easy to run these evening schools under the regulations of the Education Department, and he could not see why the new education authority should not be able to do so under the proposed regulations. He would like to remind the Committee that the Royal Commission on Secondary Education had recommended that the secondary education authority should have jurisdiction over the evening continuation schools. He knew that in many of these schools elementary subjects were taught, and he should object to any system which would prevent the education authority from providing such elementary education. It bad been said that it would be impossible to adapt elementary to secondary education in the schools in the larger towns, but he thought that could be done by the powers of delegation given to the local education authority. He insisted that these evening continuation schools should be kept in touch with the higher education, and that the secondary education authority should have control over them.

SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)

said he sympathised with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Norfolk. He felt that a great deal of difficulty had been raised in reference to this matter on purely academic grounds. It was impossible to draw a straight line between primary and secondary education, and these evening continuation schools had done a vast amount of good in helping to improve the elementary education of the working classes. They had had adult schools in Birmingham even before 1870, and in these schools the education of some of their ablest and best citizen had been developed. This system of mixed education which had grown up would be checked and destroyed if the Bill were passed in its present form. It was very important to give an opportunity to dull children, who had awakened to the importance of self-improvement, to acquire further advance in elementary education.


said he would appeal to the Committee to come to a decision on the Amendment. The point was not a novel one, and the Committee had a great deal of work before it.

SIR. WILLIAM MATHER (Lancashire Rossendale)

said he would respectfully take note of the appeal made by the Prime Minister, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that this was a question which had not been largely dealt with by the Committee on its merits. This was purely an education question per se. He would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could show the Committee, if Clause 18 passed in its present shape, what would happen to boys and girls who had attained the adult limit of age, eighteen, and who were anxious to improve themselves further. In all the technical schools at present it was found necessary to provide elementary instruction for a certain class of children coming up from the Board Schools. Without further elementary instruction they could not begin to understand even the terms used in elementary science teaching. Consequently these boys and girls would have no chance of obtaining that education afterwards. Instead of there being a link in the chain between secondary and elementary schools, there would be a void which could not be filled by any provision whatever contained in this Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman or the Secretary to the Board of Education could only say that under the provisions of this Bill the local education authority could provide in secondary schools for higher elementary education, then there would be some possibility of connecting the elementary and secondary schools as one co-ordinated whole. In the absence of this provision many children would not be fitted to enter the secondary schools. He should like to be informed whether the Bill sufficiently provided for the continuance of the education of those children who left elementary schools under the age of fifteen years. Possibly those children might get the degree of higher elementary education in the secondary schools. What provision was there in this Bill for such children to develop their faculties just at the time of life which above all others was most important for their own advancement? It was in this particular aim and this particular connection of one class of education with the other that future of this country very largely depended for its intelligence. In all the technical schools with which he was acquainted they had to provide elementary classes for the children coming out of Board Schools, in order that they might be prepared for the secondary education provided in these technical school. In this respect the Bill was an unmitigated retrogression against the interests of education as a whole, because there was nothing in tins measure to provide in the future for the bridging over of this difficulty in such a manner as would give to this country those educational advantages which other countries possessed.

SIR JAMES RANKIN (Hertfordshire, N.)

thought that they ought to carry out the desire of the Prime Minister and not carry this discussion to any further length. He agreed with the Government in regard to the method of conducting the evening continuation schools. There was a certain amount of contradiction about this proposal, because in Clause 2 it was laid down that— The local education authority may supply, or aid supply of, education other than elementary. It seemed to him that some difficulty might arise on that point. If there was a good reply to that question he should like to have an authoritative answer from the Government.

SIR EDWARD GREY (Northumberland, Berwick)

, said if he might venture to make a guess at the answer of the Government to the question put by the hon. Gentleman opposite it would be that there was no answer at all. The Government were trying to do what was impossible; they were drawing a hard and fast line between higher and elementary education, and they were doing this to prevent overlapping. There was a danger that they might have two sets of schools under different authorities competing one with the other in the same area and trying to draw the scholars from one school to another. How was that to be obviated? Certainly not by drawing a hard and fast line. The way out of the difficulty was to consider what was laid down in the discussion upon the first Clause of the Bill If the Government would reconsider the arguments then used about higher education, and have the courage to carry out more the principle of one authority, they would do away with this difficulty. Then they would get education co-ordinated. There was a want of co-ordination not only between the different kinds of education but also between the different kinds of education given in the same schools. The schools would be under one authority in the day time and another in the evening. This difficulty all arose on account of the mistake made in the beginning of the Bill and if they would only deal with that, this difficulty, which was solely the creation of the Government, could be easily removed by carrying this principle to its logical conclusion.

(1.25.) COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, Epping)

, referring to the evening continuation schools, asked what did they find was in reality done? They found that the boys left school at a much too early age and went to work. They became either discontented or anxious to know more than they did before. They came to think that there was a possibility of them adding more to the wage-earning power of the family, and they returned to the evening continuation schools. Take as an illustration the eastern countries. They could not tell him that the bulk of the children going to the evening schools were fit to begin the elementary part of what was called secondary education. Many of those boys and girls if they did not attend the evening schools were unable, after a time, even to read and write, and if they were anxious to continue their education it was the elementary portion they required. Their anxiety was to be able to read and write correctly and fit themselves for secondary education. If elementary education was to be allowed to form part of the evening school work, the proper authority would be the same body as conducted the elementary education. He confessed that he felt extremely anxious about this proposal.

MR. HELME (Lancashire, Lancaster)

thought the late Vice-President of the Council had taken too generous a view of the class of work done under the Code in evening continuation schools. When he said they had become "schools of higher instruction," the fact was a large proportion were teaching the three R's. They ought to have this Bill so worded that the education which was elementary should still be under the Elementary Department of the Government whether in day or night schools. The Secretary of the Board of Education had told them that this work in the boroughs would be continued under the penny rate, which would be still available for secondary instruction. But it was already absorbed, and he thought it was unfair that in those districts which were willing to tax themselves with an additional penny rate that the money intended for the higher educational and technological work of the locality should be applied to lower standards. These continuation schools had been a great success. The pupils had inceased from 96,542 in 1892 to 546,405 in 1901, therefore let them be kept in touch with day schools and not be transferred to county authorities. Continuity of instruction was the great thing which they desired. They found children leaving the day school with imperfect education, and then waking up to the necessity of beginning again. He thought the greatest possible inducement should be given to these young people, and if the true interests of the country were studied the Government would see to it that it was made as easy as possible for these young people to get again on the educational ladder. The number attending these evening classes over twenty-one years of age in 1892 was 4,993, but in the year 1901 that total had increased to 90,516. That showed conclusively that there was a great need for these schools. They must not be restricted in matter of age limit, but be free as now to those of any age who desired to attend them over fifteen. He joined in pressing the Government to alter the Clause accordingly.

MR. ERNEST GRAY (West Ham, N.)

said that surely the Government must see that there was a considerable difference of opinion upon this proposal on both sides of the House. In the rural areas a difficulty undoubtedly existed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had sketched a fancy picture of what should be, but the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken had stated the facts which they must recognise today. There was the gravest danger that in small villages evening continuation schools would be crushed out of existence. There was no class more deserving of assistance under the Bill than children who, having been obliged to leave school at a very early age, desired to improve themselves by going to these evening continuation schools. He believed it was beyond the wit of man to define what was primary and what was secondary education. And surely it was ridiculous to say that work done in a school between 9 and 12 o'clock in the day was primary education, and that the same class of work done between 7 and 9 o'clock in the evening was higher education. He appealed to the Government to find some way out of the difficulty. The Clause was not satisfactory, and the Amendment was not satisfactory. Surely between this and the Report stage the right hon. Gentleman would be able to find some form of words which would enable the elementary evening continuation schools to be continued, and thus meet the wishes of both sides of the Committee without destroying in any way the fabric of his Bill. Something must be done for these children. They were often those who had been neglected when very little and who now had a laudable ambition to improve their position. Unless some satisfactory assurance was given he should support the Amendment.


said the Government were perfectly clear that they must differentiate between primary and secondary education, for the reason, if for no other, that there were a large number of boroughs which had the right to give primary education but not secondary education. He had not forgotten that hon. Gentlemen opposite had contended that these boroughs should have been placed for primary as well as secondary education under the heels of the County Councils. It was very easy for critics, who had not to carry the Bill, to say how very nice the Bill would be if it ran on lines more theoretically perfect. But that had never been a possible policy. It was not a possible policy now. They had to deal with facts as they found them. He was convinced that any attempt to turn a primary school into a secondary school would lead to that overlapping which they all wished to avoid. The difficulty was to reconcile two perfectly sound views; the view of the Government—that true secondary education ought to be clearly defined so as to prevent overlapping, and the other view that if there was a limit of age there was included in that something that was not secondary education and never could be. In secondary education was included the teaching of very elementary subjects, but that was only intended as a step to the higher education, and if a boy when sent to our great public schools was put in the lowest form he would get education which might be called elementary, but which there was no doubt was secondary, from the very beginning. Sub-Section (1) must stand in some form. To meet the difficulty he suggested the addition of the following words at the end of the sub-Section— Other than a school in which no other education is given except such as is given in a primary elementary day school.


thought the proposed words would be an improvement on the sub-Section.


also said that the Amendment was a very great improvement on the sub-Section, and that it would remove the major part of the difficulty.

MR. JOHN WILSON (Durham, Mid)

thought the real difficulty of the Committee was in trying to define too closely and too rigidly the duties of the local education authority. What was required was to place more trust and more confidence in the local authorities than was now being done. He did not think that what was being taught in night schools could in any way be described as secondary education, because all it did was to take a boy at the age, say, of thirteen or fourteen, and lead him on and fit him to receive the secondary education that would be provided for him. The tendency of the human mind was to forget, and if this limit was left and the boy suddenly taken away from school he would forget all that he had learnt. In the night schools the boy would not only increase his knowledge but remember that which he already possessed. He desired to support the proposal that the continuation schools should be placed unreservedly under the local education authority.


said nobody wanted to stop these night schools, or to take them out of the purview of the local authority, and there would be no difficulty at all if it were not for the existence of certain urban districts and boroughs in which there were two local authorities. He entirely agreed with the First Lord of the Treasury that this, though a theoretical blemish on the Bill, was a thing which was essential to the passing of the measure through the House. The question was, to which of the two authorities—the county authority or the borough or urban district authority—the control of these schools should be given. It was essential that there should not be two kinds of authorities, otherwise the whole difficulty which had embarrassed the Board of Education for years, and which the Cockerton judgment put an end to, would be reintroduced. There were at present different schools giving technical, secondary, and elementary education. Why disturb them, or interfere with a proceeding now going on with great satisfaction, and to the great advantage of education, by insisting on reintroducing the evil of two rival authorities?

(1.50.) MR. BRYCE

said he was sensible of the difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman felt in adopting words on the spur of the moment, but he suggested the following form of words—"The expression 'elementary school' shall not include any evening school which the regulations of the Board of Education shall declare to be secondary or technical."


said before the Prime Minister replied he would urge him to promise that provision should be definitely made for the giving of instruction in the evening continuation schools to pupils of any age over 15, and also that the term "school" should include "class," because in many wide rural districts it was impossible to establish a proper school, and so the authorities might have at times to be content with a single class in each village.


said he could not say that he was quite satisfied with the form of words suggested, and yet he was not quite happy about leaving the matter entirely till the Report stage. An hon. Gentleman opposite had courteously handed him words which he thought were simpler than his hon. friend's words—"where any part of the education given is other than elementary." It was, however, quite possible that that might not prove satisfactory on further consideration, and he was ready to leave the matter over.


urged that the words first suggested were preferable. He was afraid, however, that under the words as they stood, it would not be possible to give even elementary education to anybody over fifteen years of age, in a night school. He would like an assurance that such a thing would be provided against.


said that that followed as a matter of course.


But if there is any legal doubt about it, the Government will attend to it?




said that if he gave a promise to deal with the matter on Report it must be subject to the exigencies of the Parliamentary situation, but he would do his best to meet the situation. The Government held that secondary education in the true sense of the word—that was to say, education which, though it went to the higher subjects, might begin lower, and which in its essentials was to be distinguished from primary education, and was not a mere continuation of primary education—ought to rest with the education authority. On the other hand, they quite admitted that in those districts where primary education proper was left to a subordinate authority, that authority ought not to be prevented from giving what was truly primary education to persons who were above the age of fifteen. That was really the point. That which was strictly elementary before the age of fifteen did not cease to be elementary after that age, and the Government would endeavour to find some method by which that point should be covered.


suggested that the Prime Minister would get out of his difficulty by accepting the first form of words. All danger from "Parliamentary exigencies" would then be avoided.


said he also should prefer the bird in the hand, having regard to Parliamentary uncertainties.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs)

wished the Prime Minister had more confidence in his own words. The first form was much wider than the second.

MR. EMMOTT (Oldham)

said they had always declared they could not define what "education other than elementary" was, but they could draw the line as to what was the education given in public elementary schools. He therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman's first words would be adopted.

MR. BRIGG (Yorkshire, W. R., Keighley)

urged that the widest possible scope should be given to the powers necessary for carrying on the continuation schools.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid)

said the words he had suggested were "where the education given was other than elementary." The difficulty was that by the words of the Prime Minister the situation was that no school could be an elementary school where there would be a single class teaching a secondary subject, because then that school would not be an elementary school.


said he hoped the Committee would allow them to finish this sub-Section. He proposed to add at the end of the sub-Section the words— Where any part of the education given is other than elementary. He hoped the Committee would allow the Clause to pass down to the end of sub-Section (2).


I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 31, after 'education,' to insert the words 'where any part of the education given is other than elementary.'"—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

Amendment agreed to. (2.0.)

(2.30.) MR. BRYCE

said he wished to move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper, to insect after "the Board of Education" the words "to pupil teachers and." The education to be given to pupil teachers was so purely elementary that no argument was necessary to recommend his Amendment to the Government.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 35, after the word 'Education,' to insert the words 'to pupil teachers and.'"—(Mr. Bryce)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


said he was afraid that the Government could not accept this Amendment.


said he hoped that the Government would not accept the Amendment since it would stop the education of pupil teachers in secondary schools, which he hoped would go on. This was one of the projects by which the School Board invaded the domain of secondary education. They could not hold to the old system, and it was better now to encourage real secondary education in schools where the pupil teachers would be trained to the teaching profession.

LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

said that if he thought for a moment that the result of his right hon. friend's Amendment would be to destroy the instruction of pupil teachers in the secondary schools he would be disposed to agree with the right hon. the Member for Cambridge University. If it was proposed to give a far higher sum out of Government resources in aid of higher education, he did not see why an arrangement might not be made to cover the expense of such teaching.


said that it seemed to him that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman was of the most reactionary kind ever made in the course of these debates. He had always thought that one of the great things which they ought to aim at was to raise the character and the tone of pupil teachers from the beginning of their career to their final employment under the Education Code. He had taken the deepest interest for many years in pupil teachers' centres, which occupied a position between the elementary and the secondary schools. If they were to give a higher tone to elementary education they must endeavour to do it by the influences coming from a higher secondary education. He thought that great injury had been done to education by some of the concessions which the Government had made already, and he hoped the Government would not go further in the direction of degrading Instead of elevating education.


said he attached importance to the Amendment because he thought it was valuable; but he recognised the fact that it was in the power of the Government to defeat it, and he asked leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


said he wished to move as an Amendment, to strike out the words in sub-Section (2), limiting instruction in public elementary schools to "scholars of not more than fifteen years of age." Assuming that these words were put in by way of compliance with the Cockerton judgment, he maintained that there was nothing in that judgment to require promising children to be resolutely turned out of the school at the age named. In rural districts, where it would not be always possible to switch off a scholar to a secondary school in some neighbouring town, the restriction in the Clause would have most deplorable results. In Scotland, the Code provided that children might stay in the public elementary schools until they were eighteen years of age; and there were, roughly speaking, 7000 pupils in elementary schools in that country over fifteen years of age. Why should they in England, be debarred from having at east as many pupils staying in the elementary schools, whose parents were content to allow them to remain there, in order to get a little beyond the rudiments of ordinary instruction? He sincerely hoped he would not appeal in vain for this modification of the Clause. Although he sympathised with the desire that gave birth to it, he opposed the fifteen years of age limit because he was convinced that it would create gaps in secondary education. If working men were prepared to allow their children to remain at school and forego their earning capacity, the least the country could do was to permit the children to remain at school

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 36, to leave out the word of not more than fifteen years of age.'"—(Dr. Macnamara.)


said this age limit was a matter of policy from which the Government could not depart. The Scotch system was different from the English in that, in Scotland, elementary and secondary education were dealt with in the same schools. One of the main objects of this Bill was to secure that, when their public elementary course was concluded, children who had the time and opportunity should have every chance of getting a higher education in secondary schools. The opinion of the Government was that a school must be one thing or the other. Elementary day schools were intended for boys and girls who, about the age of fifteen, had to go and make their way in life. After that age evening and secondary schools were provided for them, if they had the opportunity to use them. If they had not the opportunity, all that could be done was to provide as good a system of public elementary education as was possible. In the elementary schools it was desirable to concentrate the attention of the teacher on the children generally, and not to lead an ambitious teacher to apply him self to push a clever child. If the age limit were extended there would be an infinitely greater variety of children in the schools, there would be a risk that the duller children would be left behind, and public elementary teaching not be as good as that which the Government hoped would be obtained. Another objection to the abolition of the age limit was that it would bring elementary schools into competition with secondary schools, and that was the very thing the Bill was designed to prevent. The Government did not think it necessary to take the Scotch system into consideration, believing, as they did, that the best system for England was the one they had adopted. When the hon. Member said that the children would be ruled out at the age of fifteen, he might say that the Government would be quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen, which would allow a child to complete his school year, though he might attain the age of fifteen before the end of it.

MR. YOXALL (Nottingham, W.)

said the promise of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen to allow a child trained in an elementary school to complete his school year after he reached fifteen, was satisfactory as far as it went; but the Committee were very disappointed to hear the hon. Gentleman defend Clause 18 as it stood. As he understood the hon. Gentleman he was still confined in his ideas to the old distinctive division between the elementary and secondary education, This Bill proposed to allow the local authorities to provide two kinds of instruction; but he (Mr. Yoxall) thought it might best be left to the local authorities to draw the line where it was thought it ought to be drawn. It might suit a locality to say that both kinds of education should go on in the one school, which might be more economical than otherwise. The object of the Government in this case was clear—it was to enable them to identify a child in the secondary school to whom they were giving the grant. But his argument was, that the hon. Gentleman might give the grant to the same child in a higher elementary school. He contended that if a child could get another near of continuous education in an elementary school it would be far cheaper than if he went to a secondary school for it. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had thought well to stand up for this particular Clause, which was unnecessary, which was not inherent to the Bill and which was a legacy left by a mischief-making Vice-president to the Board of Education.


said the difference between the hon. Member opposite and the Board of Education was that the hon. Member would give clever children a sham secondary education, and the Board of Education desired to give them a real one. The hon. Member recommended the keeping of the children in elementary schools because it was cheaper, and it cost less to give a boy the extra instruction in an elementary school. That was the kind of recommendation which the hon. Gentleman made of this proposal. The idea of the Board of Education was that it was better to take the clever children out of the elementary schools and to give them the higher education their talents deserved. There was, no doubt, a strong temptation to the teacher to keep a clever boy, and it was much better that he should go where he would meet other boys as clever as himself, rather than that he should remain a conceited, overtaught, overweening boy in an elementary school where, to use a vulgar expression, he was cock of the walk. In the rural districts he would get to the secondary school by the proper method of county scholarships. There were already in almost every county in England county scholarships by which promising boys and girls could pass from elementary schools to higher schools. Under the present Bill this so-called educations ladder would, no doubt, be greatly improved. That was the real way to deal with clever boys. It was no use keeping clever and promising pupils in elementary schools, where they did not get the higher instruction which their talents merited. If we wanted a national system of education it was essential that we should make our system a "capacity-catching machine," by which capable children would be taken to a higher school where they could really get the sort of instruction they needed.


thought that the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had given a more encouraging support to the Bill than he did formerly. He regretted the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education, that the Scotch system was not applicable to England. It was necessary that the first rung of the educational ladder should be in the elementary school, and now, so far as he could see, the Government intended not only to knock away that first rung, but the last rung also. If county scholarships were in general prevalence all over England, one would not care so much, but it was not upon that ground that the hon. Gentleman had defended the proposal of the sub-Section. He dissented entirely from the view that the Scotch system was not desirable or practicable in England.

MR. JOHN WILSON (Durham, Mid)

thought the decision at which the Government had arrived was due to a lack of knowledge of the country districts and the difficulty in the way of the scholars attending secondary schools. The authority would not be able to provide many secondary schools, and if the boys and girls were taken away from the elementary schools at fifteen, there was no place in the counties where they could continue their studies. In the boroughs, where secondary schools could be formed, it would be no doubt an easy matter, but in the counties it would be a difficult thing for the children to get secondary education; they would be cut off from school life altogether. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had rather exaggerated the power to obtain scholarships; besides which he (Mr. Wilson) did not agree with a policy which would only take account of the superior pupils. There were many other pupils who might be of great use to their country, but whose intellects were less ready in learning. In many districts there were boys and girls who at sixteen or seventeen years of age began to realise that they had not previously made the best use of their time, and wished to make good their deficiencies. He submitted that this provision would interfere with the proper equipment of our boys and girls for competition with other nations. He hoped the Government would reconsider their decision.


sympathised with the feeling expressed by the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the Committee, but reminded hon. Gentlemen that throughout the whole of Western Europe thirteen was the age limit for primary education. In one or two Swiss cantons it was fourteen. With regard to Scotland, he had observed that for that country there was no such thing as an Elementary Education Act, and it was owing to the fact that it was an "Education Act," and not an Elementary Education Act, that there was such a great difference between the education of Scotland and England. Another objection to raising the age limit was that it would be necessary to have a higher class in the elementary school, which had a great attraction to the elementary school teacher, and which, in his opinion, would be more or less disastrous to elementary education. Children at the present time were not sufficiently well grounded; the teachers and the parents of the children were, he thought, too ambitious, and the children were pressed on too much, and he thought it would be better to give the children a more thorough foundation of knowledge, and not to increase the age limit.


asked if the Government would be prepared to allow the local authority a discretion to retain a pupil beyond the age of fifteen if there should be no provision for higher education within the district.


said he believed that one of the methods recommended by the Secondary Education Commission was in this direction.


said he could only undertake to consider this point, which had but a distant relation to the Amendment.


relying on this consideration, begged leave to be allowed to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


thought that the Amendment he now moved, to permit the local education authority to allow a scholar to remain in a school to the end of the school year in which he or she attained the age of fifteen years, was obviously a convenient one, and as he understood the Government proposed to accept it, he would move it without any further observation.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 37, at end, to insert the words 'but any scholar may remain in such school to the close of the school year in which he or she reaches the age of fifteen.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 37, at end, to insert the words '(3) Where before the passing of this Act fees have been charged in any public elementary school the local education authority shall, while they continue to charge fees in respect of that school, pay such proportion of those fees as may be agreed upon, or, in default of agreement, determined by the Board of Education, to the managers.'"—(Sir Willam Anson.)

MR. WHITLEY (Halifax)

on a point of order, called attention to the fact that this point had already been decided by the Committee, and therefore, he submitted, this Amendment was out of order. The Committee on the previous day had passed the words on the top of page 6, in Clause 13, that the fees of any school should be paid to the authority.


thanked the hon. Member for pointing out this matter, but regretted that he had not had the hon. Gentleman's assistance before. Having had to give way once, he saw no alternative but to give way again.


on the point of order, submitted that sub-Section (3) was not in order. It was an Amendment to a definition Clause and had nothing to do with it. There was nothing in the Clause except definitions of matters incidental to the Clauses. This had nothing whatever to do with definitions, and it was absolutely out of order in its present place.


read sub-Section (2)and sub-Section (5,)and pointed out that neither of them were really definitions.


pointed out that both the provisions alluded to by the hon. and learned Attorney General were limited. He submitted that this Amendment was out of order.


said he was disposed to agree. He thought that this was really a definition Clause; both the second and fifth sub-Sections were definitions, and, that being so, the Amendment would be out of order.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 41, at end, to insert the words '(4) In this Act the expression "minor local authority" means the council of any borough or urban district, or the parish council or (where there is no parish council) the parish meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think proper for joint appointment by the authorities concerned.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

Amendment agreed to.


in the absence of the hon. Member for East Nottingham, begged leave to move the Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member.

Amendment proposed— In page 7, line 41, at end, to insert the words '(4) In this Act the words "persons," and "managers," shall include women.'"—(Mr. Bryce.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."


objected that this would tend to throw doubt on the general proposition that "persons" included either sex. He thought it was quite unnecessary to put such a definition in the Bill.


suggested that it was not a definition at all, but an enactment.


said that in substance it was a definition.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


said he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for East Somerset.


Is that a definition?


submitted that the words, "The powers of a local education authority under this Act shall include" was a very clear definition indeed.

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 3, at end, to insert the words 'The powers of a local education authority under this Act shall include the provision of vehicles or the payment of reasonable travelling expenses for teachers or children attending school whenever the local education authority shall consider such provision or payment required by the circumstances of their district or of any part thereof.'"—(Mr. Whitley.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 3, to add, as a new sub-Section, '(5) In this Act the expression "college" includes any educational institution, whether residential or not.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."


said he had not had time to look into it, but he would like to know whether the term "educational institution" included theological institutions, because they also were educational institutions.

MR. JAMES HOPE (Sheffield, Brightside)

asked whether the term "educational institution" would include hostels where no lectures were given, but where students lived, and which were affiliated to some other institution to which the students went by day for the purpose of lectures, because in Clause 4 there was a certain ambiguity. "Hostels" were included in some cases and left out in others.


asked whether the words "educational college" had been brought into any other Clause except Clause 4.


said a hostel which was simply a boarding house would not be included. If it was affiliated to another institution, no question would arise, because then it would be part of a whole, and would be an educational institution; but it would not, by itself, be an educational institution.


Then I move to insert after "educational institution" the words "not being a theological college."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment— After the word 'institution' to insert the words 'not being a theological college.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."


said these words were not wanted. Practically speaking, this was a definition for the purposes of Clause 4 of the word "college," which did not appear elsewhere. A theological college was not the sort of institution that Clause 4 dealt with; it did not include a theological college.


said that, as a matter of fact, the word occurred again in Clause 13, but that did not affect this question much.


said he was perfectly well aware that such a thing was not contemplated, but he wanted to know whether it would be legal for a local authority to subsidise theological seminaries. He did not think they ought to be subsidised, though, if they were, Wales, in all probability, would derive the greatest advantage. But it ought to be made clear that such a thing should not be done.


said it was clear that the local authority would be able to assist a theological college. He did not see why the local authority should be forbidden to assist one sort of college more than any other sort of college.


said he was glad they had got at it at last. At first he was told that Clause 4 would cover the case; now it was clear that it did not. This was one of the little surprises of the Bill. Let it be clearly understood that it was perfectly possible under this Bill to endow any theological seminary of any denomination or sect. The book of revelation was not yet closed, in spite of the guillotine. He should press the Amendment as a protest against it.

(3.53.) Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 94; Noes, 191. (Division List No. 530.)

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Caldwell, James
Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud Bell, Richard Cameron, Robert
Ashton, Thomas Gair Brigg, John Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Atherley-Jones, L. Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Causton, Richard Knight
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Channing, Francis Allston
Craig, Robert Hunter Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Soares, Ernest J.
Cremer, William Randal Leigh, Sir Joseph Spencer, Rt Hn C. R.(Northants
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Leng, Sir John Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Lewis, John Herbert Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh. Lough, Thomas Tennant, Harold John
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Edwards, Frank Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Markham, Arthur Basil Thomson, F. W.(York, W.R.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Mather, Sir William Tomkinson, James
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Toulmin, George
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Moss, Samuel Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Gladstone, Rt. Hn HerbertJohn Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wallace, Robert
Goddard, Daniel Ford Philipps, John Wynford Wason, Eugene
Grant, Corrie Pickard, Benjamin Weir, James Galloway
Griffith, Ellis J. Price, Robert John White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rea, Russell Whitley, J.H.(Halifax)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Rickett, J. Compton Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Helme, Norval Watson Robson, William Snowdon Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Runciman, Walter Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Horniman, Frederick John Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
Jacoby, James Alfred Schwann, Charles E. Yoxall, James Henry
Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Kitson, Sir James Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Lambert, George Shipman, Dr. John G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Langley, Batty Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Mr. Lloyd-George and
Layland-Barratt, Francis Soames, Arthur Wellesley Mr. M'Kenna.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Horner, Frederick William
Aird, Sir John Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Howard, John(Kent, Fav'rsh'm
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham
Arkwright, John Stanhope Crossley, Sir Savile Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hudson, George Bickersteth
Arrol, Sir William Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kemp, George
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Bailey, James (Walworth) Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Kennedy, Patrick James
Bain, Colonel James Robert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Baldwin, Alfred Doxford, Sir William Theodore Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Duke, Henry Edward Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th
Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey) Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Lawson, John Grant
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Fardell, Sir T. George Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bartley, George C.T. Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bignold, Arthur Finch, George H. Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham
Bigwood, James Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fisher, William Hayes Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Bond, Edward Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry Lowe, Francis William
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Flower, Ernest Lowther, C.(Cumb. Eskdale)
Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh. Forster, Henry William Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth
Brymer, William Ernest Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W Macdona, John Cumming
Bull, William James Galloway, William Johnson MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Butcher, John George Gardner, Ernest M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)
Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Glasgow Garfit, William Malcolm, Ian
Carew, James Lawrence Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Manners, Lord Cecil
Carson, Rt. Hon Sir Edw. H. Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.
Cavendish, R.F.(N. Lancs.) Graham, Henry Robert Maxwell, WJH(Dumfriesshire
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Greene, Sir EW (B'rySEdm'nds Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Montagu, G.(Huntingdon)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Grenfell, William Henry More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire
Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A(Worc. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w
Chapman, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F Morrell, George Herbert
Charrington, Spencer Hamilton, Rt Hon Lord G(Middx Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd Mount, William Arthur
Clive, Captain Percy A. Hare, Thomas Leigh Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Hay, Hon. Claude George Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute
Coddington, Sir William Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Murray Charles J.(Coventry)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hogg, Lindsay Myers, William Henry
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway N.)
O'Doherty, William Round, Rt. Hon. James Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Royds, Clement Molyneux Tritton, Charles Ernest
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Parker, Sir Gilbert Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Valentia, Viscount
Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Walrond, Rt Hon Sir William H.
Percy, Earl Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wanklyn, James Leslie
Pierpoint, Robert Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight Warde, Colonel C. E.
Plummer, Walter R. Sharpe, William Edward T. Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. Tauntou
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne
Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Purvis, Robert Smith, James Parker (Lanarks Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)
Pym, C. Guy Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Rankin, Sir James Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Ratcliff, R. F. Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath
Rattigan, Sir William Henry Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Reid, James (Greenock) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Remnant, James Farquharson Stone, Sir Benjamin Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Talbot, RtHon J.G.(Oxf'd Univ. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n'N Sir Alexander Acland-
Ropner, Col. Robert Thornton, Percy M. Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

Words [of Sir WILLIAM ANSON'S Amendment] inserted.

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 4, to leave out the words 'local education authority' and insert the word 'council.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 7, at end, to add: 'And shall include power to provide or assist in providing scholarships for, and to pay or assist in paying the fees of, students ordinarily resident in the area of the local education authority at schools or colleges or hostels within or without that area. '(6) The county councillors elected for an electoral division consisting wholly of a borough or urban district, whose council is a local education authority for the purpose of Part III. of this Art, or of some part of such a borough or district, shall not act or vote in respect of any question arising before the County Council as regards matters under Part III. of this Act. '(7) A woman is not disqualified, either by sex or marriage, for being on any body of Managers or Education Committee under this Act.'"—(Sir Wm. Anson.)

Amendment agreed to.

SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)

moved to leave out sub-Section 6 in order to insert the words "For the purposes of this Act the census of 1901, until superseded by any future census, shall be the test of population." He pointed out that many districts at present just under the population limit would soon be over that limit, and it would be unfair that they should be permanently denied the powers given under this Bill. The Amendment really required no explanation, and he hoped the concession would be made.

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 8, to leave out sub-Section. (6), and insert the words 'For the purposes of this Act the census of 1901, until superseded by any future census, shall be the test of population.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."


objected that if the status of a borough or urban district was to vary from time to time according to its population they would never know how they stood.


pointed out that some districts might increase largely in population, while other districts would decrease. The scheme of the Government, therefore, did not confer the advantages of the Bill on the increasing populations, while perpetuating the rights possessed by populations which were diminishing. Moreover, his recollection was that the Prime Minister had previously stated that districts would vary according to the variation of the population. He thought the matter ought to be determined by the population of the locality for the time being.

(4.15.) Question put;

The committee divided:—Ayes 202, Noes,99. (Division List No.531).

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Morrell, George Herbert
Aird, Sir John Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J.(Manc'r Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Mount, William Arthur
Arkwright, John Stanhope Finch, George H. Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham(Bute
Arrol, Sir William Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Myers, William Henry
Bailey, James (Walworth) Flower, Ernest Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bain, Colonel James Robert Forster, Henry William Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.
Baldwin, Alfred Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W. O'Doherty, William
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Galloway, William Johnson Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey) Gardner, Ernest Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Garfit, William Parker, Sir Gilbert
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Percy, Earl
Bartley, George C.T. Graham, Henry Robert Pierpoint, Robert
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Greene, Sir EW(BryS Edm'nds Plummer, Walter R.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Greene, Henry D(Shrewsbury) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bignold, Arthur Grenfell, William Henry Pretyman, Ernest George
Bigwood, James Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Purvis, Robert
Blundell, Colonel Henry Guthrie, Walter Murray Pym, C. Guy
Bond, Edward Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Rankin, Sir James
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Hamilton, Rt Hn LordG(Midd'x Ratcliff, R.F.
Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex) Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hare, Thomas Leigh Reid, James (Greenock)
Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh. Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Brymer, William Ernest Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E. Ridley, Hon. M W. (Stalybridge
Bull, William James Hogg, Lindsay Ridley,S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Butcher, John George Hope,J.F (Sheffield, Brightside Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow Horner, Frederick William Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Carew, James Laurence Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm Ropner, Colonel Robert
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cautley, Henry Strother Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cavendish, R.F.(N. Lancs.) Hudson, George Bickersteth Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire Kemp, George Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir, John H. Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kennedy, Patrick James Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Seely, Maj.J.E.B(Isle of Wight
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J A(Worc Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chapman, Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Charrington, Spencer Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lawson, John Granr Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Coddington, Sir William Leigh- Bennett, Henry Currie Stanley, Hon Arthur(Ormskirk
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Stanley, EdwardJas. (Somerset
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Long, Col. Clarles W.(Evesham Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol,S. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Corbett,A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lowe, Francis William Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.
Crossley, Sir Savile Lowther, C.(Cumb. Eskdale) Thompson, DrEC(Monagh'n,N
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lucas, ReginaldJ(Portsmouth Thornton, Percy M.
Davies,Sir HoratioD.(Chatham Macdona, John Cumming Tollemache, Henry James
Dickinson, Robert Edmond MacIver, David (Liverpool) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire Tritton, Charles Ernest
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Malcolm, Ian Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Manners, Lord Cecil Tuke, Sir John Batty
Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Valentia, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Massey-Main waring, Hn. W.F. Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Maxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh. Warde, Colonel C.E.
Duke, Henry Edward Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M. Welby, Lt,-Col. A C. E (Taunton
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Whiteley, H (Ashton-und Lyne
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Fardell, Sir T. George Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.)
Wilson, John (Glasgow) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart- TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.) Wrightson, Sir Thomas Sir Alexander Acland-
Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath Wyndham, Rt. Hon George Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale Schwann, Charles E.
Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Helme, Norval Watson Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Horniman, Frederick John Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C.B. Jacoby, James Alfred Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bell, Richard Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea Soares, Ernest J.
Brigg, John Kitson, Sir James Spencer, Rt. Hn. C.R(Northants
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Lambert, George Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Langley, Batty Tennant, Harold John
Burns, John Layland-Barratt, Francis Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Caldwell, James Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Cameron, Robert Leigh, Sir Joseph Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Thomas,JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Causton, Richard Knight Lewis, John Herbert Thomson, F. W.(York, W.R.)
Craig, Robert Hunter Lloyd-George, David Tomkinson, James
Cremer, William Randal Lough, Thomas Toulmin, George
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen M'Arthur, William (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Davies, M Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Kenna, Reginald Wallace, Robert
Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.) Markham, Arthur Basil Wason, Eugene
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Mather, Sir William Weir, James Galloway
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) White, George (Norfolk)
Edwards, Frank Moss, Samuel White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Evans, Sir FrancisH(Maidstone Newnes, Sir George Whitley, J.H.(Halifax)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Philipps, John Wynford Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund Pickard, Benjamin Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Price, Robert John Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Furness, Sir Christopher Rea, Russell Woodhouse, SirJ.T(Huddersf'd
Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John Rackett, J. Compton Yoxall, James Henry
Goddard, Daniel Ford Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Grant, Corrie Robson, William Snowdon
Griffith, Ellis J Roe, Sir Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Runciman, Walter Sir Edward Strachey and
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Mr. Channing.

(4.26.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 206; Noes,101. (Division List No.532.)

Agg-Gardner James Tynte Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole
Aird, Sir John Brown, Alexander (Shropsh. Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas
Anson, Sir William Reynell Brymer, William Ernest Corbett, A. Cameron Glasgow
Arkwright, John Stanhope Bull, William James Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Butcher, John George Cranborne, Viscount
Arrol, Sir William Campbell, Rt. Hn. J.A(Glasgow Crossley, Sir Savile
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Carew, James Laurence Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Bailey, James (Walworth) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cautley, Henry Strother Dickinson, Robert Edmond
Baldwin, Alfred Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Ba1four, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r Cavendish V.C.W.(Derbyshire Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fr'd Dixon
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) Cayzer, Sir Charles William Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Doxford, Sir William Theodore
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA(Worc. Duke, Henry Edward
Bartley, George C.T. Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Chapman, Edward Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Charrington, Spencer Fardell, Sir T. George
Bignold, Arthur Churchill, Winston Spencer Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Bigwood, James Clive, Captain Percy A. Fergusson Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst
Bond, Edward Coddington, Sir William Finch, George H.
Boscowen, Arthur Griffith- Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Fisher, William Hayes
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lowther, C.(Cumb., Eskdale) Ropner, Colonel Robert
Flower, Ernest Lucas, ReginaldJ.(Portsmouth Round, Rt. Hon. James
Forster, Henry William Macdona, John Cumming Royds, Clement Molyneux
Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S. W MacIver, David (Liverpool) Sackville, Col. S.G.(Stopford-
Galloway, William Johnson M`Killop, James (Stirlingshire Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Gardner, Ernest Malcolm, Ian Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)
Garfit, William Manners, Lord Cecil Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Gibbs, Hn.A.G.H.(CityofLond. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Seely, Maj.J.E.B.(IsleofWight
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Maxwell, W JH(Dumfriesshire Sharpe, William Edward T.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M. Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Graham, Henry Robert Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East
Greene, SirE. W (B'rySEdm'nds Montagu, G.(Huntingdon) Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)
Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)
Grenfell, William Henry More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.) Spencer, Sir E.(W. Bromwich)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morgan, DavidJ(Walth'mstow Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk
Guthrie, Walter Murray Morrell, George Herbert Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hamilton, Rt Hon. Lord G (Mid'x Mount, William Arthur Stone, Sir Benjamin
Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Haslett, Sir James Horner Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Talbot, Rt. Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.
Hay, Hon. Claude George Myers, William Henry Thompson, Dr.EC(Monagh'n N
Hogg, Lindsay Nicol, Donald Ninian Thornton, Percy M.
Hope,J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N. Tollemache, Henry James
Horner, Frederick William O'Doherty, William Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Tritton, Charles Ernest
Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Parker, Sir Gilbert Valentia, Viscount
Hudson, George Bickersteth Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Kemp, George Percy, Earl Warde, Colonel C.E.
Kennedy, Patrick James Pierpoint, Robert Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E(Taunton
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne
King, Sir Henry Seymour Plummer, Walter R. Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Pretyman, Ernest George Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th Purvis, Robert Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Lawson, John Grant Pym, C. Guy Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E.R(Bath
Leeky, Rt. Hn. WilliamEdw. H. Rankin, Sir James Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Ratcliff, R. F. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Rattigan, Sir William Henry Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Reid, James (Greenock) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Remnant, James Farquharson
Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Ridley, Hon. M.W (Stalybridge
Long, Rt. Hon Walter(Bristol, S Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson Sir Alexander Acland-
Lowe, Francis William Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Lloyd-George David
Allen, CharlesP.(Glouc.,Stroud Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith) M'Kenna, Reginald
Ashton, Thomas Gair Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Atherley-Jones, L. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Markham, Arthur Basil
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Furness, Sir Christopher Mather, Sir William
Beaumont, Wentworth C.B. Goddard, Daniel Ford Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William
Bell, Richard Grant, Corrie Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Brigg, John Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Gurton, Sir W. Brampton Newnes, Sir George
Bryce, Rt. Hon James Harmsworth, R. Leicester Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Burns, John Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Philipps, John Wynford
Caldwell, James Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Pickard, Benjamin
Cameron, Robert Helme, Norval Watson Pirie, Duncan V.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Price, Robert John
Causton, Richard Knight Horniman, Frederick John Rea, Russell
Channing, Francis Allston Jacoby, James Alfred Rickett, J. Compton
Craig, Robert Hunter Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Cremer, William Randal Kitson, Sir James Robson, William Snowdon
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Lambert, George Roe, Sir Thomas
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Langley, Batty Runciman, Walter
Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh. Layland-Barratt, Francis Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Schwann, Charles E.
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Leigh, Sir Joseph Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Edwards, Frank Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Evans, Sir Francis H.(M'dstone Lewis, John Herbert Shipman, Dr. John G.
Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Thomas, J A(Glamorgan Gower Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Soares, Ernest J. Tomkinson, James Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R(Northants Toulmin, George Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Strachey, Sir Edward Trevelyan, Charles Philips Woodhouse, Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe Wallace, Robert Yoxall, James Henry
Tennant, Harold John Wason, Eugene
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. Weir, James Galloway TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E. White, Luke (York, E.R.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone
Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr Whitley, J.H.(Halifax) and Mr. William M'Arthur.

It being half-past Four of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 11th instant, proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, on every question necessary to dispose of the allotted business.

Clause 19:—

Amendment proposed— In page8, line 10, after the second word 'the' to insert the words 'First and.'"— (Sir William Anson.)

(4.38.) Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes,84. (Division List No.533.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd
Aird, Sir John Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hare, Thomas Leigh
Anson, Sir William Reynell Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Haslett, Sir James Horner
Arkwright, John Stanhope Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Hay, Hon. Claude George
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hogg, Lindsay
Arrol, Sir William Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cranborne, Viscount Horner, Frederick William
Bailey, James (Walworth) Crossley, Sir Savile Howard, John (Kent, Faversham
Bain, Colonel James Robert Cust, Henry John C. Howard, J (Midd., Tottenham)
Baldwin, Alfred Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Davenport, William Bromley- Hudson, George Bickersteth
Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey) Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Kemp, George
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Dickinson, Robert Edmond Kennedy, Patrick James
Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor) Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bartley, George C.T. Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.
Beresford, Lord Charles William Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Doxford, Sir William Theodore Lawson, John Grant
Bignold, Arthur Duke, Henry Edward Lecky, Rt Hon. William Edw. H.
Bigwood, James Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage
Blundell, Colonel Henry Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Bond, Edward Fardell, Sir T. George Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Finch, George H. Lowe, Francis William
Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)
Brymer, William Ernest Fisher, William Hayes Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth
Bull, William James Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Butcher, John George Flower, Ernest Macdona, John Cumming
Campbell, Rt HnJ.A. (Glasgow Forster, Henry William M'Ivor, David (Liverpool)
Carew, James Laurence Foster, PhilipS.(Warwick,S.W. M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Galloway, William Johnson Malcolm, Ian
Cautley, Henry Strother Gardner, Ernest Manners, Lord Cecil
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Garfit, William Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Gibbs, Hn. AGH.(City of Lond. Maxwell, WJ H(Dumfriesshire
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H.M.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. JA. (Worc. Graham, Henry Robert Montagn, G. (Huntingdon)
Chapman, Edward Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS Edm'nds Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Charrington, Spencer Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) More, Robert Jasper (Shropshire
Churchill, Winston Spencer Grenfell, William Henry Morgan, David J (Wa'thamst'W
Clive, Captain Percy A. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Morrell, George Herbert
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Guthrie, Walter Murray Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer
Coddington, Sir William Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Mount, William Arthur
Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.
Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute Ropner, Colonel Robert Tritton, Charles Ernest
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry Round, Rt. Hon. James Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Myers, William Henry Royds, Clement Molyneux Valentia, Viscount
Nicol, Donald Ninian Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford- Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield
Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway N. Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir William H.
O'Doherty, William Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Wanklyn, James Leslie
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Warde, Colonel C. E.
Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) Seely, Maj. J.E.B.(Isle of Wight) Welby, Lt-Col. AC.E.(Taunton
Parker, Sir Gilbert Sharpe, William Edward T. Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne
Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Percy, Earl Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East) Wilson A. Stanley (York, E.R.)
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, James Parker (Lanarks Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Plummer, Walter R. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Pretyman, Ernest George Stan1ey, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Purvis, Robert Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Pym, C. Guy Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Rankin, Sir James Stone, Sir Benjamin Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Rattigan, Sir William Henry Strutt, Hon Charles Hedley Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Reid, James (Greenock) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Remnant, James Farquharson Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Ridley, Hon. M. W(Stalybridge Thompson, Dr. EC. (Monagh'n, N TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green Thornton, Percy M. Sir Alexander Acland-
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson Tollemache, Henry James Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Allen, Charles P.(Glone.,Stroud Jones, David Brynmor(Swanesa Shipman, Dr. John G.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Kitson, Sir James Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Atherley-Jones, L. Layland-Barratt, Francis Soares, Ernest J.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington) Spencer, Rt Hn C.R(Northants
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Leigh, Sir Joseph Strachey, Sir Edward
Bell, Richard Leng, Sir John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Brigg, John Levy, Maurice Tennant, Harold John
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Lloyd-George, David Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.
Burns, John Lough, Thomas Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Caldwell, James M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Cameron, Robert Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan, Gower
Channing, Francis Allston Markham, Arthur Basil Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)
Craig, Robert Hunter Mather, Sir William Tomkinson, James
Cremer, William Randal Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Toulmin, George
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Moss, Samuel Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Newnes, Sir George Wallace, Robert
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Philipps, John Wynford Wason, Eugene
Edwards, Frank Pickard, Benjamin Weir, James Galloway
Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne Pirie, Duncan V. White, Luke, (York, E.R.)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Price, Robert John Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Rea, Russell Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Furness, Sir Christopher Rickett, J. Compton Williams, Osmond (Merioneth
Goddard, Daniel Ford Robson, William Snowdon Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Grant, Corrie Roe, Sir Thomas Woodhouse, Sir JT.(Huddersf'd
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Runciman, Walter
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Helme, Norval Watson Schwann, Charles E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Horniman, Frederick John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Mr. Ellis Griffith and Mr.
Jacoby, James Alfred Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) Samuel Evans.

(4.48.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill"

The Committee divided:—Ayes,204; Noes,93. (Division List No.534.)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Arrol, Sir William Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey)
Aird, Sir John Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (L'ds
Anson, Sir William Reynell Bain, Colonel James Robert Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Baldwin, Alfred Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bartley, George C. T.
Beresford, Lord Charles Wm. Graham, Henry Robert Pierpoint, Robert
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS. Edm'nds Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bignold, Arthur Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury) Plummer, Walter R.
Bigwood, James Grenfell, William Henry Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Blundell, Colonel Henry Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Pretyman, Ernest George
Bond, Edward Guthrie, Walter Murray Purvis, Robert
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Pym, C. Guy
Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis) Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashf'rd Rankin, Sir James
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hare, Thomas Leigh Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.) Haslett, Sir James Horner Reid, James (Greenock)
Brymer, William Ernest Hay, Hon. Claude George Remnant, James Farquharson
Bull, William James Hogg, Lindsay Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge
Butcher, John George Hope, J.E.(Sheffield, Brightside Ridley, S. Forde(Bethnal Green
Campbell, Rt Hn J. A.(Glasgow Horner, Frederick William Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Carew, James Laurence Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham) Ropner, Colonel Robert
Cautley, Henry Strother Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Round, Rt. Hon. James
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hudson, George Bickersteth Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. Kemp, George, Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Kennedy, Patrick James Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn JA.(Worc'r King, Sir Henry Seymour Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Chapman, Edward Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight
Charrington, Spencer Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Lawson, John Grant Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.)
Coddington, Sir William Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Smith, Hon. W. F D. (Strand)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk)
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Stone, Sir Benjamin
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lowe, Francis William Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cranborne, Viscount Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Crossley, Sir Savile Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Cust, Henry John C. Lyttleton, Hon. Alfred Thompson, Dr. EC(Monagh'n,N
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Macdona, John Cumming Thornton, Percy M.
Davenport, W. Bromley- MacIver, David (Liverpool) Tollemache, Henry James
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Malcolm, Ian Tritton, Charles Ernest
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P Manners, Lord Cecil Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F. Valentia, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Maxwell, WJH.(Dumfriesshire Vincent, Col. SirCEH.(Sheffield
Doxford, Sir William Theodore Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Walrond, Rt Hn. Sir William H.
Duke, Henry Edward Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G. Wanklyn, James Leslie
Durning, Lawrence, Sir Edwin Montagu, G. (Huntingdon) Warde, Colonel C. E.
Egerton, Hon. A de Tatton Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Welby, Lt.-Col. AC.E.(Taunt'n
Fardell, Sir T. George More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Whiteley, H(Ashton-und. Lyne
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Fergusson, Rt. Hn. SirJ.(Manc'r Morrell, George Herbert Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E. R.
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Finch, George H. Mount, William Arthur Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)
Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson
Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Flower, Ernest Myers, William Henry Wrightson, Sir Thomas
Forster, Henry William Nicol, Donald Ninian Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick,S.W Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Galloway, William Johnson O'Doherty, William
Gardner, Ernest Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Gardner, William Palmer, Walter (Salisbury) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Gibbs, Hn. H. A. G (CityofLond. Parker, Sir Gilbert Sir Alexander Acland-
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Percy, Earl
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Bayley, Thomas, (Derbyshire) Burns, John
Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud Beaumont, Wentworth C.B. Caldwell, James
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bell, Richard Cameron, Robert
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Brigg, John Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Atherley-Jones, L. Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Causton, Richard Knight
Channing, Francis Allston Leigh, Sir Joseph Soares, Ernest J.
Craig, Robert Hunter Leng, Sir John Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R.(Northants
Cremer, William Randal Lewis, John Herbert Strachey, Sir Edward
Davies, Alfred(Caramarthen) Lough, Thomas Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan M'Arthur, William(Cornwall) Tennant, Harold John
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Edwards, Frank Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomson, F.W. (York, W.R.)
Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone Moss, Samuel Toulmin, George
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Newnes, Sir George Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Ferguson, R.C. Munro (Leith) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wallace, Robert
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Philipps, John Wynford Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Furness, Sir Christopher Pickard, Benjamin Wason, Eugene
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John Pirie, Duncan V. Weir, James Galloway
Grant, Corrie Price, Robert John White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Griffith Ellis J. Rea, Russell Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Rickett, J. Compton Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Williams, Osmand (Merioneth)
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Robson, William Snowdon Wilson, Henry J (York, W. R.
Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Roe, Sir Thomas Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Helme, Norval Watson Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland) Yoxall, James Henry
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Schwann, Charles E.
Horniman, Frederick John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Jacoby, James Alfred Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Jones, David Brynor(Swansca Shipman, Dr. John G. Sir John Brunner and Mr.
Layland-Barratt, Francis Sinclair, John (Forfarshire) Runciman.
Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Clause 20:ߞ

Amendment proposed— In page 8, line 31, to leave out from the word 'authorities' to the end of line 35, and insert the words, 'the period during which local authorities may, under the Education Act,1901, as renewed by the Education Act (1901) (Renewal) Act,1902, empower School Boards to carry on the work of the schools and classes to which these Acts relate shall be extended

Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Jacoby, James Alfred Shipman, Dr. John G.
Allen, Charles P(Glouc.,Stroud Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Ashton, Thomas Gair Layland-Barratt, Francis Soares, Ernest J.
Atherley-Jones, L. Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Strachey, Sir Edward
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. Leigh, Sir Joseph Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Bell, Richard Lewis, John Herbert Tennant, Harold John
Brigg, John Lough, Thomas Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Burns, John Markham, Arthur Basil Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower
Caldwell, James Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Thomson, F. W (York, W.R.)
Craig, Robert Hunter Moss, Samuel Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Newnes, Sir George Wallace, Robert
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Norman, Henry Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh) Norton, Captain Cecil William Wason, Eugene
Edwards, Frank Philipps, John Wynford Weir, James Galloway
Evans, Sir Francis H(Maidstone Pickard, Benjamin White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Pirie, Duncan V. Whitley, J.H. (Halifax)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Price, Robert John
Furness, Sir Christopher Rea, Russell
Griffith, Ellis J. Rickett, J. Compton TELLERS FOR THE Ayes.—
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Robson, William Snowdon Mr. John Wilson (Durham)
Hayne, Rt. Hon. (CharlesSeale- Roe, Sir Thomas and Mr. Cremer.
Helme, Norval Watson Runciman, Walter
Horniman, Frederick John Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

to the appointed day, and in the case of London to the twenty-sixth day of March, nineteen hundred and four.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

(5.2) Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 65; Noes,204. (Division List, No.535.)

Words inserted.

(5.13.) Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Myers, William Henry
Aird, Sir John Fisher, William Hayes Nicol, Donald Ninian
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)
Arkwright, John Stanhope Flower, Ernest O'Doherty, William
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Forster, Henry William Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Arrol, Sir William Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S.W Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Galloway, William Johnson Parker, Sir Gilbert
Bain, Colonel James Robert Gardner, Ernest Pease Herbert Pike(Darlington
Baldwin, Alfred Gartit, William Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r Gibbs, Hn A.G.H.(Cityof Lond. Pierpoint, Robert
Balfour, Capt. C.B.(Hornsey) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St.Albans) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W(Leeds Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Plummer, Walter R.
Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.) Graham, Henry Robert Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor) Greene, Sir EW(B'ryS. Edun'nds Pretyman, Ernest George
Bartley, George C. T. Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury) Purvis, Robert
Beresford Lord Charles William Grenfell, William Henry Pym, C. Guy
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Rankin, Sir James
Bignold, Arthur Guthrie, Walter Murray Rattigan, Sir William Henry
Bigwood, James Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F. Reid, James (Greenock)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Remnant, James Farquharson
Bond, Edward Haslett, Sir James Horner Ridley, Hn. M. W.(Stalybridge
Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex) Hay, Hon. Claude George Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn Hogg, Lindsay Ritchie, Rt. Hn Chas. Thomson
Brookfield, Colonel Montagu Hope. J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brown, A1exander H.(Shropsh. Horner, Frederick William Ropner, Colonel Robert
Brymer, William Ernest Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham) Round, Rt. Hon. James
Bull, William James Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Royds, Clement Molyneux
Butcher, John George Hudson, George Bickersteth Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-
Campbell, Rt Hn. J.A.(Glasgow Kemp, George Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Carew, James Laurence Kennedy, Patrick James Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cautley, Henry Strother King, Sir Henry Seymour Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow) Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lawson, John Grant Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J.A.(Wocr Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Chapman, Edward Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)
Clive, Captain Percy A. Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol,S. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole Lowe, Francis William Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas Lowther, C. Cumb., Eskdale) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Thompson, Dr EC(Monagh'n, N
Cranborne, Viscount Macdona, John Cumming Thornton, Percy M.
Crossley, Sir Savile MacIver, David (Liverpool) Tollemache, Henry James
Cust, Henry John C. M'Kil1op, James (Stirlingshire) Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M
Davenport, W. Bromley- Malcolm, Ian Tritton, Charles Ernest
Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Manners, Lord Cecil Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Dickinson, Robert Edmond Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Tuke, Sir John Batty
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Maxwel, WJ.H (Dumfriesshire Valentia, Viscount
Dixon-Hartland Sir Fred Dixon Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Vincent, Col Sir C.E.H(Sheffield
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Montagu, G (Huntingdon) Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.
Doxford, Sir-William Theodore Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wanklyn, James Leslie
Duke, Henry Edward More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire Warde, Colonel C.E.
Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin Morgan David J(Waltamstow Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E.(Taunton
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Morrell, George Herbert Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne
Fardell, Sir T. George Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Mount, William Arthur Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C. Wilson, John (Glasgow)
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Finch, George H. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

The Committee divided:—Ayes,197:Noes,89. (Division List No.536.)

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart- Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H. Sir Alexander Acland-
Wrightson, Sir Thomas Hood and Mr. Anstruther.
Allan, Sir William (Gateshead) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Runciman, Walter
Allen, Charles P., Glouc.(Stroud Harmsworth, R. Leicester Samuel, Herbert L (Cleveland)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Sehwann, Charles E.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D. Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Helme, Norval Watson Shipman, Dr. John G.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Horniman, Frederick John Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Bell, Richard Jacoby, James Alfred Soares, Ernest J.
Brigg, John Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Layland-Barratt, Francis Strachey, Sir Edward
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Burns, John Leng, Sir John Tennant, Harold John
Caldwell, James Lewis, John Herbert Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E
Cameron, Robert Lough, Thomas Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe Thomas, J. A(Glamorgan, Gower
Causton, Richard Knight Markham, Arthur Basil Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.
Channing, Francis Allston Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Craig, Robert Hunter Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wallace, Robert
Cremer, William Randal Moss, Samuel Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen) Newnes, Sir George Wason, Eugene
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Norman, Henry Weir, James Galloway
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. Norton, Capt. Cecil William White, Luke (York, E.R.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Philipps, John Wynford Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Pickard, Benjamin Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Edwards, Frank Pixie, Duncan V. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne Price, Robert John Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Rea, Russell Yoxall, James Henry
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Rickett, J. Compton
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co. Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Furness, Sir Christopher Robson, William Snowdon Mr. Herbert Gladstone
Griffith, Ellis J. Roe, Sir Thomas and Mr. William M'Arthur

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.