§ Amendment proposed—
§
"Page 56, line 4, at end, insert—
The compensation payable to any high constable or collector of a barony, or to his deputy, duly appointed under section two hundred and forty-eight of the Grand Juries Act, 1836, shall be according to the following scale:—(a) If his service has not exceeded two grand jury half-years, one year's net emoluments; (b) If his service has exceeded two grand jury half-years, one year's net emoluments, together with one quarter of one year's net emoluments for each grand jury half-year which he has served above the two first, but not exceeding in any case five years' net emoluments; (c) The net emoluments shall be ascertained according to the average for the six grand jury half-years next before the summer assizes. 1898, or if the officer has served for less
679
than that period, then for the period of his service; (d) The gross emoluments of a deputy shall not exceed the sum deducted in respect thereof in ascertaining the net emoluments of the high constable or collector whose deputy he was; (e) The expression 'grand jury half-year,' means the period between any assizes and the next assize."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
§ Amendment to Amendment proposed—
§
"Line 7, leave out 'quarter,' and insert 'half.'"
Line 9, leave out 'five,' and insert 'ten.'
And for the purposes of this schedule the net emoluments of a high constable or collector or of a collector of a district shall be deemed to be the gross average annual poundage received by him during the period aforesaid, after deducting therefrom the average annual salaries or poundage paid by him to his deputy or sub-collector during the same period."—(Mr. J. H. M. Campbell.)
MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELLThis is the last opportunity which is offered to the Chief Secretary for showing a little generosity. I do not suggest that he has been illiberal in the matter of treating the officers, and I wish to compliment him on the manner in which he has dealt with the suggestions made to him. I think, as a reward for the progress we have achieved to-day, he might give me this small concession for which I ask for a very deserving body of people. I might point out that a large number of these collectors are absolutely dependent for their livelihood upon collecting this asset. Some of them have had 40 years' service, and now they are going to be turned adrift with five years' compensation. I think that is an extremely absurd compensation to be fixed as a maximum. I do not see why, if those who have served 40 years should only get one year's net emoluments, and those who serve less than five years are to get a year for every year they serve, those who have served 40 years should only receive five years' compensation. It is a matter which requires looking into. If it is a fair allowance for the man who has served five years to get a year's net emoluments for every year he has served, then it follows that it is grossly inadequate for a man who has served many years in excess of that period, and 680 it is unfair to turn a man of 40 years' service adrift with only five years' net emoluments. I know it is said, and not untruly, that these men hold their offices at the will of the grand jury, and that they were re-appointed every year, but honourable Members opposite know, in point of fact and practice, that they were never removed.
§ DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)Then they ought to have been.
MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELLThere are great many officials who ought to have been removed, who still remain. They have just the same tenure of office, neither higher nor lower, than the secretary of the grand jury or the county surveyor. Those officers have been properly and carefully provided for under this Bill, but these cess collectors, some of whom have served 40 years and some 50 years, and who have no means of livelihood, are now to be turned adrift with five years' emoluments. I do not propose, at this time of night, to go into the other Amendments, as they are consequential on the first one. The last one contains something which is to compensate the deputy, I think some consideration might be given to this very deserving class, and therefore I move to leave out "quarter," and insert "half."
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURMy honourable and learned Friend suggests that I might give way to generosity. I do not think my honourable and learned Friend is quite aware how generous the terms are which we propose in this schedule. In order to compare a gratuity with an annuity it is necessary to state how I made the assumption that the average age would be about 10 years, and that the average amount of the net emoluments of the barony cess collector would be about £100. Any factor would serve the purpose equally well, but I calculated it upon this assumption, that if the net emoluments were £100 a year under this schedule, the gratuity which he would receive would compare favourably to the 681 recipient with the amount which would be received by a Civil servant whose office was abolished. Now, my honourable and learned Friend suggests that we have done injustice to these gentlemen, who have received compensation under this schedule, in stopping short at five years. I believe, on the contrary, that it is on the whole a very generous provision. I believe it would be impossible to find in any other Act where compensation has been made that it has been made on such favourable terms. My honourable Friend must remember this: supposing it went to 20 years, what would be the effect? I might make my calculation on the basis of 30 years, and a gratuity calculated on the same basis would purchase an annuity very much larger than it would at an earlier age, and if you could not give this gratuity on the larger amount. If the honourable and learned Member's Amendments are accepted, and "half" is substituted for a "quarter," the result will be that in 10 years the person in receipt of a gratuity will be getting nearly twice as much as those who are compensated by means of an annuity; and if you insert 10 years instead of five, in my judgment it would give a lump sum in gratuity far beyond what would be reasonable for a person whose employment was promiscuous. You must remember that these persons axe not really entitled to any compensation at all strictly, and I do not think they have been treated unfavourably. They have been practically compensated in the same manner as persons who are permanently employed are compensated.
§ MR. P. A. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.)The Chief Secretary said just before he sat down that in his judgment these officers were not entitled to any recompense at all, and I agree with him entirely upon that.
§ MR. GERALD BALFOURI did not say entitled, I said that strictly and legally compensation might be denied them, owing to the terms of their employment.
§ MR. P. A. M'HUGHWhy are they not treated strictly in accordance with the terms of their employment? The right honourable Gentleman is charged with being ungenerous, but I venture to assert that the honourable and learned Gentleman who asked for this concession does not know the real facts of the case in connection with these barony constables of Ireland. Now, I have had an opportunity of knowing how these gentlemen conduct their business and how they are paid, and I can say this without contradiction that, so far as they are concerned, they do not deserve any consideration whatever. Most of them are the illegitimate sons of the grand jurors, who have been put into the position. [Cries of "Withdraw, withdraw!"] I certainly shall not withdraw. Most of them are the illegitimate sons of the grand jurors, who have been put into that position simply because they are related in this manner to the grand jurors, as I know to my personal knowledge. [Uproar.] shall finish my sentence when the Members of this House of Commons cease to interrupt me. As I know to my personal knowledge, most of these gentlemen are the hangers-on of the rent offices. We have a rent office in Sligo, which is administered by the Messrs. Robinson, and any man who wished to become a barony constable of that county had to go to that office, and had to get the support of the foreman of the grand jury. I say it is a gross scandal that we Nationalists of Sligo, consisting of 90 per cent, of the people of the county, and paying 90 per cent, of the county cess, can never get a man appointed as a constable unless he is a Protestant, As a matter of fact we have on several occasions put forward men of the finest integrity and education, and men who could give security as good as the Bank of England.
§ COLONEL SAUNDERSONMay I interrupt the honourable Gentleman, and ask him if he did not say the other day that he himself was a grand juror?
§ MR. P. A. M'HUGHI did say I was a grand juror, but I was not selected by the sheriff, I was elected by the people. I was an ex-officio member, and I stood alone in my integrity, and when I tried to get a member of my own party, a Nationalist, selected to take the place of a deceased barony constable, although this gentleman was one in the very highest position, and able to give the best of security, and a gentleman of the highest respectability, his application was refused, although he offered to collect it for half the amount which the others collected it for. [Laughter.] It may be a laughing matter to honourable Gentlemen opposite. [No, no!] It is a laughing matter. It appears to me that you think it is better to continue the system which prevails, but if it is, we Catholics and Nationalists would never get a man appointed, and we put forward the best man, a man of the highest respectability. These men put forward, who had this connection with the grand jurors, and who wished to get a shilling in the £, these men for whom the honourable and learned Member now claims compensation and pensions, do not collect the cess, but farm it out to deputies, who collect it at twopence in the £, and they draw tenpence for doing nothing. I say, under these circumstances, these men deserve no compensation whatever.
§ MR. FLYNNI can corroborate what has been said on general lines; these men do nothing for the money which they draw. They get the collection of the county cess at a certain poundage, and they farm it out at 2d. or 3d. in the £, and do not do a stroke of honest work for what they receive. They do nothing to the advantage of the country, and, under the circumstances, I say it is scandalous and indefensible that they should receive any compensation at all. It is a kind of job that cannot be defended by anybody who is aware of the circumstances. There is no one who can say it is like a surveyor or grand juror, who does the work. This is a sop to the servants of the grand juries who are to be swept away, and it 684 will have to be put upon record that this is a portion of the robbery and blackmail which the Irish people are compelled to suffer for the sweeping away an obsolete system which was vicious in the extreme.
§ MR. COLLERY (Sligo, N.)I entirely agree that these gentlemen have no claim whatever to compensation, though I cannot allow this discussion to terminate without expressing my dissent to the statements which have been made as to these gentlemen. I cannot agree that the barony collectors deserve the description which has been applied to them by the honourable Member. I think the barony cess collectors have no claim whatever to compensation because they are gentlemen who come in and got appointed through the influence of the grand jurors, one of whom I happen to be. They simply hold their office as an honorary appointment. Many of those appointed in my district are respectable farmers, and one of those fanners came to me and asked me to become a security for him to the man for whom he collected the cess, for whom, by the way, I was security to the grand jury. That is a case which actually happened to me. I may state this though, that there are gentlemen for whom I have a great respect as men of intellect, who are Catholics, who can never get appointed because these appointments are obtained through influence, and it is influence to which no Catholic need apply. I proposed myself two or three Catholics who were willing to do the work for 6d. in the £, as against the shilling which is being paid, and they were refused. We only got two votes—that of myself and my Friend sitting behind me—and what was the result? They appointed a gentleman who was a sub-agent in an office, who farmed it out, and drew his 9d. in the £, and he does not do single thing. So far as he has any claim on the ratepayers, he has none whatever. I speak now for the first time on almost any subject, and I do so now 685 because I am convinced of the justice of the contention that they have no claim upon the ratepayers for compensation for the discontinuation of the duties which they had to do. The office was purely an honorary one.
§ DR. TANNERsaid it appeared to him the gentleman who took up the position of a barony constable was a person who had failed in even other line of life. When a man failed to pass for the Army, and it was too late to get him into the Navy, and it was absolutely useless to try and net him into the Civil Service, when he was absolutely unable to pass the necessary examination to become a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, then the relatives consulted with the grand jury, and they came to the natural conclusion that he was fit to become a barony constable for the county of Cork. He did sincerely hope that the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary would not attempt to perpetuate a system which was so full of extreme jobbery. The whole of the county of Cork had been farmed out for years in that way. A personal friend of his own had obtained a permanent position through the action of the right honourable Gentleman, but that was no reason why the whole of his family should have appointments in the county. As a matter of fact, there were nine members of one family who had the absolute control of all this business in the county, and did it at too remunerative interest to please the ratepayers. He sincerely hoped that the right honourable Gentleman would take a firm stand upon the matter. He looked upon the Amendment of the honourable Member as a practical joke, and he did trust that he would not insist upon it.
§ Question put.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Schedule 7 added to the Bill.