SCHEDULE 3. (Hansard, 24 May 1898)

MR. T. M. HEALY
The right honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to offer to increase the Excise taxes of our country if we accepted that proposal, but we desire that the Excise taxes, which are captured by the Government, should be put to local purposes. There is the pawnbrokers' tax; that is a tax which goes directly to the Imperial Government. There is the hackney carriage tax, levied solely in Dublin, and the dog tax, which also go to the Impe- 676 rial Government. Now, it does seem to me that those three taxes which do not exist in England, or, if they do exist, go to the local authority and not to the Imperial Government, should in Ireland go towards local government.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
They already go in aid of the police in Dublin and the petty sessions clerks in Belfast and other matters.

MR. T. M. HEALY
What are the figures?

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I have not got the figures at the moment; but a certain proportion of those taxes has to be paid in Dublin out of local taxation. They are either paid direct by the corporation, or, if the corporation did not 677 continue to collect them, they would have to be paid in some other way. There would be no gain to the local taxes or to the taxpayer in Ireland. The justices' clerks in Ireland, as in England, are paid out of Imperial sources. Part now of the dog tax goes towards local taxes; therefore, in reality, nothing would be gained by throwing these into the local taxes, it would merely be taking the money out of one pocket to put it in the other.

§ MR. M. HEALY
Can the right honourable Gentleman tell me this: the dog tax is payable for the year ending 31st of March, and the tax which is paid on the 31st March does not reach the county councils until the May twelvemonth following. In other words, the tax which was paid in March last will not reach the county councils until next May. I want to know how that is. I believe it is a mere question of keeping the account.

MR. T. M. HEALY
The right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary has given me the same answer as he gave me on Wednesday. There is an area from Dublin to Bray in which 8d. in the £ is levied for the upkeep of the police, not a constable of which can we appoint. He said just now he has not the figures as to how much of these taxes go to local purposes. I do not blame him for saying so. We can never get them. Who pays the pawnbrokers' tax? It is squeezed out of the rags and misery of the poor. The hackney carriage tax has no parallel in England. The Dublin Metropolitan Police are a most excellent body, and a popular body, and their officers are drawn from the ranks, and I only wish the Royal Irish Constabulary were like them: there are no snobs amongst them. Their officers do not aim to sup at the tables of the landlords or anything like that. They do their duty in the streets, but there are more police in Dublin, having regard to the population, than in any city of the world. There are three times as many police in Dublin in ratio to the population as there are in London, though in London you will, per- 678 haps, see more property in one street than you can find in all Dublin put together, including the Castle. That being so, it is absurd that you should keep up this enormous force. You only do so because you are able to levy the amount from the pawnbrokers, the jarvies, and the dogs to keep it up. I believe half the charge of the metropolitan police of Dublin falls on the ratepayers, and with regard to the proposal of the right honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer all we ask him to do is this: we do not want him to increase the Excise taxes, but to divert them into the proper channel. Whenever we ask for the amounts which are given out of these taxes for local matters, the right honourable Gentleman tells us he has not the figures. We once had a Vice-Chancellor in Ireland, 30 or 40 years ago, who looked after these matters, now we have an Irish official established at the Treasury, who, instead of sticking out against these Treasury brigands, simply re-echoes everything they say.