LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.

HC Deb 10 May 1898 vol 57 cc919-55

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith), CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, in the Chair.]

(In the Committee.)

On the return of the CHAIRMAN, after the usual interval,

Amendment proposed— Clause 13, page 7, line 12, leave out 'for a county,' and insert 'so appointed.' Clause 13, page 7, line 20, leave out sub-section 5, and insert— The salary of any coroner shall be fixed by the county council, with the approval of the Local Government Board, and shall not be subject to increase or diminution, but in the case of existing coroners such salary shall not be less than the maximum amount paid to such coroners since their election to office."—(Mr. Timothy Healy. )

MR. M. HEALY (Cork City)

I desire to move the Amendment standing in the name of the honourable Member for North Louth. The right honourable and learned Gentleman will see that it is with the object of limiting the clause to the cases of new appointments; and whatever is to be said in favour of the principle of changing the law in the cases of coroners appointed after its application I wish to point out that the coroner's office is a freehold, and it has always been so held in Ireland. After this clause passes into law it is difficult to believe that it will continue to be a freehold office. At any rate, however that may be, this clause unquestionably makes an important change in the Statute, and I think the Government will have some difficulty in defending the proposal that that change should apply to the cases of existing coroners. He is not an officer of the county in a sense; he is paid by the county council, but he is not their servant—he is not amenable to their orders. He acts under the common law of the kingdom, and fills a judicial office. The sole connection between the coroner and the county council is that his salary is levied off the county. That being so, you cannot put the coroner as an ordinary county officer. But even if you did, all the other county officers have their rights safeguarded. An elaborate series of protections are devised for them in subsequent clauses, and therefore their status is carefully preserved. It is enacted that they will hold office under the county council on exactly the same terms as under the grand jury. Why an exception should be made in the case of a man who is not a county council officer, I am at a loss to see, and I protest against any proposal that goes in that direction, because no scandals have arisen in connection with the coroners in Ireland. I trust that the Government will see their way to confining its operation to new officers.

MR. ATKINSON

I think this and some other Amendments put on the move him from his office for misconduct of what the clause is. From the earliest time the Lord Chancellor had jurisdiction over the coroner, and had power to remove him from his office for misconduct of any kind; but the misconduct of the coroner should be brought before his notice by the freeholders of the county concerned. That action of the Lord Chancellor was not an administrative proceeding; it was a judicial proceeding. Thirty years ago a Statute was passed in England identical with this, the 23 and 24 Vict., which merely consolidated the law and provided that the Lord Chancellor could remove the coroner for inability or misbehaviour. That was a judicial Act, and I may call the attention of the honourable Member to a judgment of Lord Campbell, reported in the second Law Journal, where he laid down the duty of the Lord Chancellor with reference to coroners. Now, that clause was re-enacted a few years ago in identical terms, and it came before the then Lord Chancellor (reported in the Law Journal, Queen's Bench Division), and he laid down the law in the same terms—that where any judge was empowered to remove a man from office from any cause, he must necessarily give notice to the officer who holds the office, and could only remove him after he had had an opportunity of defending himself against any accusation made against him. The danger, therefore, which the honourable Member apprehends has no existence, and it would be quite impossible for the Lord Chancellor to act in any other way than he did in reference to those officers over whom he had the power of dismissal—namely, hear the accusation in open court, give due notice to the person accused, hear what excuse or justification he had to offer, and then, upon the evidence of both sides, pronounce the decision he was bound to give. Again, if an officer so removed felt he was aggrieved, he could, on petition, have the decision reviewed. He might mention that this clause was put in because it was felt desirable to assimilate the law in Ireland to what it was in England, where it had obtained for many years without a single instance having been brought forward in which it could be suggested that anyone had been aggrieved.

MR. M. HEALY

thanked the right honourable and learned Gentleman for his statement, which he thought was quite satisfactory, indicating, as it did, that the action of the Lord Chancellor would be judicial, and not executive, as to which there had been some apprehension.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed— To omit sub-section 5, and to insert— The salary of any officer shall be fixed by the county council with the approval of the Local Government Board, and shall not be subject to increase or diminution, but in the case of existing officers shall not be less than the maximum amount paid to such coroners since their election to office."— (Mr. Timothy Healy. )

MR. M. HEALY

moved this Amendment on behalf of Mr. TIMOTHY HEALY. He said the Amendment was not directed either to increasing or decreasing a coroner's salary. It only provided for some rational method for fixing the salary. The original payment of coroners in Ireland depended upon the number of inquests they held. He thought the arrangement was £2 an inquest, and the amount which the coroner drew in respect of his office depended upon the degree of his activity in holding those inquests.

MR. ATKINSON

said he preferred the Amendment standing in the name of the honourable Member for Londonderry (Mr. KNOX), in the following terms— Coroners shall be paid by salary instead of by fees, and the salaries of coroners and the scale of allowances for expenses shall be fixed by the county council on or before the 29th of September, 1899; and thenceforward, on or before the 29th day of September, every fifth year at such sum as the Local Government Board may approve, having regard to the number of inquests during the three previous years, provided that the salaries and scale of allowances payable to the coroners heretofore appointed shall not be less than the average of the sums received by them during the three years before the passing of the Act. He would be quite willing to consider the matter with regard to both Amendments between now and the Report stage, and to frame a clause to carry out the intention of both.

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

Does the honourable Member for Cork wish to move the omission of sub-section 5?

MR. M. HEALY

I am quite willing to accept the proposal of the Attorney General to bring in a clause embodying the main features of both Amendments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. CLANCY

I beg to move the Amendment that stands in my name.

Amendment proposed— Clause 12, page 7, line 21, at end, add— A county council may, with the consent of the Local Government Board, grant to a coroner who becomes incapable of discharging the duties of his office from old age or by reason of confirmed ill-health, such superannuation allowance as such council, in concurrence with the Local Government Board, deems fit under all the circumstances of the case."—(Mr. Clancy. ) This Amendment, Sir, permits the Local Government Board to say whether superannuation shall be allowed, and also to say what the amount shall be; and therefore I expect that there will be no opposition to it. On the wording of it some superannuation might have to be given, but if the county council wanted to avoid giving any superannuation allowance, evidently they might fix upon such a small amount that it would be equivalent to not giving any at all. No doubt, in a great many cases, the county council may have no reason to grant, and ought not to give, compensation, but there may be special circumstances attaching to particular cases, in which the council might desire, if it had the power, to give superannuation of some kind. I do not desire to throw burdens on the new bodies which the ratepayers cannot pay, especially as I know that a very great increase in the rates will have to be borne by the occupiers. I submit that this Amendment will do no more than enable the county council to give compensation, where they would gladly give it if they had the power, and I submit respectfully that the Committee ought not to object to give this power to the county council.

MR. J. C. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

I hope these words will not be put into the clause, for it will be opening the door to a very great danger by the rush of unfit applicants for the post of coroner. All honourable Members, and especially Irish Members, are inundated with letters regarding these appointments. I certainly object to an Amendment of this kind, and I trust the Committee will not accept it. There is another view. Coroners are, as a rule, professional men, and they take these positions in competition with others, and are very glad to get them. There is, therefore, no reason why they should be placed in a better position than they are at present, at the cost of the ratepayers. Above all, in view of the fact that you may be opening the door for a rush of applicants of an unfit character, I trust the Committee will not accept this Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I cannot accept the Amendment of the honourable Member. I do not know of any case in which an officer who is not giving his whole time to the public service is entitled by law to superannuation. Such a case very seldom, if ever, occurs, and at the very outset I may say that the most which the Government can possibly concede in this matter is that those who devote the whole of their time to their services as coroners might be brought under the Superannuation Act of 1865. We could not possibly give countenance to the proposal that a man who spends only part of his time in the public service should be superannuated.

MR. TULLY

I think the cost of this superannuation will fall entirely upon the ratepayers or occupiers, and we should be very zealous to see that there is no proposal to increase that expense. With regard to the coroners the people eligible for those positions are confined to a very small class, chiefly magistrates, solicitors, and doctors. In the case of doctors, if the applicant is the dispensary doctor for the district the Local Government Board object, and very properly, to his being the coroner. The magistrates are generally men of position and wealth, who do not care to compete for such small offices. It is, therefore, confined to solicitors and doctors, and these gentlemen, if they have good practices of their own, are not likely to be candidates. I think, in a case like this, the Government were very wise in not agreeing to any proposal for superannuation, and I hope they will act in the same way with other officials later on.

MR. CLANCY

I do not think the right honourable Gentleman is accurate in saying that there is no class of officer entitled to superannuation except those who give their whole time to the duties of the office. As a matter of fact, medical officers in Ireland are not excluded from their right to a pension or superannuation on the ground that they do not give their whole time to the duties, for Parliament passed an Act entitling them to superannuation. I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman whether he would be willing to consider this matter in connection with the other questions arising later on upon the same subject. If he will do that, I will not press my Amendment to a Division, especially as he has promised to look into the question and see whether there are cases of doctors who do not give their whole time, and ask for compensation. I understand, Mr. Lowther, that there are such officers, and I am given to understand that there are at least a dozen coroners in Ireland giving their whole time to the duties, and, that being so, I submit, at all events, that this ought to be considered. A good many of them have been appointed for a large number of years, and in that case, at all events, if they give their whole time to it, they are as much entitled to superannuation as any other officers who give their whole time. If the right honourable Gentleman will promise to consider that point I will withdraw my Amendment.

MR. G. MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, Mid)

I hope the right honourable Gentleman will not consider anything of the kind, for it will open the door to something which I am sure the right honourable Gentleman does not desire to happen. I would like to remind the Committee that there is a very important section of the people to be considered, and they are the occupiers and the ratepayers; and I think that, as the whole expense of any increase will fall upon the ratepayers in the future, their interests should be very seriously and very carefully considered. I do not know of any class in Ireland which is so well treated, and which has so little to complain of, as the official class. They are the one class in Ireland who have no real complaint. They live on the fat of the land, and have everything that is good, and the poor occupiers who have to pay these men and furnish them with big salaries have to labour and sweat to earn the money to pay them. And now these officers are not satisfied. I do hope that the House will rise equal to the occasion, for it is an occasion of the greatest importance to the Irish people. We have heard it stated that it is our policy to abuse the landlords for exacting undue rent, and I quite agree with honourable Gentlemen when they take up that position. But I also say that the money which you have to pay to the officials is as hardly earned as the money you have to pay to the landlord, and I do not see any difference in degree in any other way in transferring from the pockets of the landlords to the pockets of the officials this money which is wrung from the Irish ratepayers. I hope and trust that the right honourable Gentleman will stick to his guns, and stand by the ratepayers.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

It is just possible that I made a mistake just now with regard to my statement in reference to superannuation not being given to officers who did not devote the whole of their time to their public duties. It is quite true, as the honourable Member has pointed out, that medical officers in Ireland have the right to superannuation, and may receive it from the guardians, but they are liable to be called upon at any time when required. Therefore I was not perfectly accurate in saying that they gave the whole of their time. But the coroners, however, are in a very different position, for they might not be called on more than once or twice a month. However, where they do give their whole time, I will go as far as I suggested, and bring them within the Superannuation Act of 1865.

MR. J. JORDAN (Fermanagh, S.)

I hope the Government will stick to the decision they have arrived at, and not give this Amendment any further consideration. My honourable Friend said that he knew 10 or 12 cases where coroners gave the whole of their time. Well, those coroners accepted the position, and did not expect at the time to get any superannuation, and now those gentlemen want to get in a better position under this Bill than they were in before. Now, I contend that they have no right to be placed in a better position than they were in before. I do not see why this should be imposed on the county councils when they are formed, and they should not have the power to grant a large amount in superannuation allowances. I strongly protest against coroners, or men in that position, who have accepted their duties subject to the condition of not having a pension, coming forward now and claiming a position which they had not before, for, by accepting this, we should be paying them for doing nothing.

MR. CLANCY

As the right honourable Gentleman has promised to take into favourable consideration the question of giving compensation to those coroners who devote their whole time to their duties, I will withdraw my Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR

I did not say "compensation." What I said was that they might come within the Superannuation Act of 1865.

MR. CLANCY

That was what I understood you to say. I beg to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed— That the clause stand part of the Bill.

MR. TULLY

I rise, Sir, to urge that the Government should take into consideration the question of allowing county councils, if they think fit, when a vacancy occurs in the office of coroner for any district or county, to refuse to appoint any person to the office, which office should thereupon cease to exist. The clause as drawn by the Government makes it compulsory on the county council to elect a coroner for every existing district in Ireland. I think power should be given to county councils to amalgamate districts where one coroner could easily do the work of the two. There are a great deal too many coroners in Ireland for the work there is to do. In West Meath the work is done by one coroner. In Longford, the adjoining county, which is smaller, two coroners are appointed. In the case of Longford and West Meath power should be given to amalgamate. You adopt this principle in the case of your resident magistrates; you do not confine them to one county. I should like to have an expression of opinion from the right honourable Gentleman as to whether, on Report, the Government will introduce wards to give power to the county councils, where they think they could wisely amalgamate districts, or, where two counties could be amalgamated, to appoint one coroner to do the work.

DR. RENTOUL (Down, E.)

said this could easily be done under the Bill as it at present stood. When a vacancy occurred in one county the council of that county could appoint the coroner of the adjoining county, if they thought fit, to fill the vacancy. The one coroner would then do the work of the two counties.

MR. ATKINSON

agreed that there would be nothing to prevent this course being adopted, but thought that in most cases the district would be too large.

MR. DILLON

I do not think the amalgamation of two counties would effect any saving of money, because the salary of the coroners is to be calculated in proportion to the amount of work to be done. It is plain that if one man undertook to do the work of two counties he would charge in proportion. The ratepayers would have to pay the same, and would necessarily not get their work done so well. Under this clause the county councils have power to alter and consolidate districts within the county, and I do not see the slightest use of going beyond that.

MR. M. HEALY

asked what the right honourable Gentleman proposed to do in the case of Galway, which would not come under the Bill, and whose position with regard to the appointment of the coroner was unique.

MR. ATKINSON

said the matter would be considered.

Question put.

Clause agreed to.

cc928-32
1. CLAUSE 14. 1,349 words
cc932-4
2. CLAUSE 15. 654 words
cc934-9
3. CLAUSE 16. 1,642 words
cc939-55
4. CLAUSE 17. 4,921 words