CLAUSE 14. (Hansard, 10 May 1898)

§ MR. M. HEALY
I wish to ask whether there is not some danger that by-laws made in an urban district will conflict with the by-laws made by the 929 county council. As I understand, it is proposed to wholly exclude boroughs from the operation of by-laws made by the county council. The reason for that, I take it, is that boroughs have themselves power to make by-laws. But there are other cases in Ireland where the power of making by-laws exists. Urban sanitary districts have power to make bylaws, and the power obtains in certain towns. I do not think two authorities should exist in a county, each capable of making by-laws, with the danger that the by-laws might conflict. I do not wish to press the Amendment. I am not sure that it is necessary, but I should like the Government to consider the matter.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
Boroughs have more extensive powers of making by-laws than exist in urban districts. I do not think that there is any serious danger of a conflict between one local authority and another. Not only is the power in urban districts, other than boroughs, of making by-laws much more limited, but the Local Government Board would, before sanctioning those by-laws, consider whether they would conflict with any existing by-laws. Any difficulty could be easily settled by the Local Government Board.

§ MR. M. HEALY
said he had no strong opinion on the matter. He did not wish to do more than draw the attention of the Government to it. If they were satisfied that no inconvenience would arise he would not press his Amendment.

§ MR. PLUNKETT (Dublin Co., S.)
had the following Amendment standing in his name:— (3)Provided, further, that all by-laws, orders, and regulations of any authority whose powers and duties are transferred by this Act to any urban district council as are in force at the time of the transfer shall, so far as they relate to or are in pursuance of the powers and duties transferred, continue in force as if made by that council, and may be revoked or altered accordingly; and provided, also, that nothing in this section contained shall affect the power of such urban district council under any enactment or otherwise of making by-laws, orders, and regulations for the good government of its own district. 930 He said his constituents felt rather strongly on this matter. He would not, however, press his Amendment, as he was sure, if there was any doubt on the point, that the Government would clear it up between now and the Report stage.

§ MR. TULLY
I wish to inquire whether this power of making by-laws extends to cases of extraordinary traffic on roads. In England, if a man starts a traction engine on a road, the ratepayers make the owner of the traction engine contribute towards the maintenance of the road. The law is altogether different in Ireland. I think this is a point worth consideration. The Irish law should in such matters be assimilated to the English.

§ MR. M. HEALY
I say that I am aware of a recent case in county Cork where a road has had to be thrown out of repair in consequence of the heavy traffic, traction engine traffic, etc., and the local authority could not point to any authority for the use of it. That road, at any rate, it is impossible to keep in repair, because it would cost so much to do so. It would cost £400 a year to keep two miles of road in repair, and the local authority had to throw it out of repair because they could not keep it in order. I ask, is there a general power under the Act to deal with a specific case of this sort, to cover the case of traction engines? Would it be competent for county councils to make by-laws to deal with those matters? The danger which is apparent to my mind is this, that this power is so very general that it is difficult to say what the county councils will be able to do and what they will not be able to do. I would much prefer in a matter of this kind that a series of definite powers should be put into this Bill to cover the points which must necessarily arise.

§ MR. DILLON
This is a very important point, and I should like to know whether this is the same clause as was given to the county councils of England. As a matter of fact, there is at present a case before the Lord Chief Justice and five judges upon the question of a by-law 931 made by the county council of Kent in which it was alleged there was an infringement of Magna Charta in one of their by-laws. I am not sure that the case will not come before the Court of Appeal. If this power gives the county councils power to make by-laws I think it is a very wide clause indeed.

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE (Wilts, Cricklade)
Perhaps I may be permitted to say one word upon this subject, because the question of by-laws is a very important one, and, as the honourable Member who has just preceded me has pointed out, has been before the Courts of Law and Parliament. The power of making by-laws by the English county councils was given by section 16, which incorporates the Municipal and the Public Health Acts; but the English county councils have powers in addition to those which they inherited from the old Quarter Sessions in regard to certain matters relating to roads, etc., which, no doubt, have given the county councils equal jurisdiction; and although I think the right honourable Gentleman the Attorney General is quite accurate when he says the words of the Municipal (Irish) Act and the Public Health Acts are sufficient to meet this point, some of those relating to extraordinary traffic, no doubt, are not actually covered by this section, and it might be desirable upon the Report stage to insert words to show clearly that the Irish county councils should have the same powers as the English county councils have under the old Highways Act of 1878.

§ MR. KNOX
I do not think this question of extraordinary traffic is a matter for a by-law at all. In England it is dealt with by a section of the General Highways Act, which gives the power to make a levy upon the owners of heavy vehicles—such as the contractor who damages the road by his extraordinary traffic—for the cost of repairing the road. It does not matter very much how you give the power, so long as it is given, but it is clear that the remedy is not by way of penalty. I think the matter is one for the consideration of the Government; but it is one which should not, in my opinion, be dealt with by means of a by-law, and I do not think 932 it could be well dealt with by such a course. If dealt with at all, it should be by a separate clause.

§ MR. ATKINSON
Let us see what this section says. It is not possible to have more general words than— The county councils shall have the same power to make by-laws for their counties … as the council of a borough have.

§ MR. M. HEALY
Will the right honourable Gentleman consider before the Report stage the advisability of giving the local authorities a specifics power in this matter?

§ MR. ATKINSON
It is a very wide section, and deals with it generally.

§ MR. TULLY
As I was one of the Committee upstairs which considered and dealt with this point, I know something about it. There is in the English Act a power of dealing with heavy vehicular traffic, and I think we should have a similar power in Ireland to deal with traction engines and heavy traffic; and I ask the right honourable Gentleman to consider the case of extraordinary traffic when we reach the Report stage of the Bill.