CLAUSE 15. (Hansard, 10 May 1898)

§ LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE
Upon this I wish to move the Amendment which appears upon the Paper in my name, which, by a mistake upon my part, was inserted in a wrong place. It is an Amendment to give the county councils the power, not only to oppose legislation, but also to promote it where they think it is necessary. I move the Amendment for two reasons, the first of which is strictly germane to this Bill, because I think it is rather absurd to call into existence important bodies like 933 the county councils, and to give them, no doubt, extended powers, and at the same time appear to show distrust in them by denying them an important power like this—a power which is given to every municipality in England, bodies some of which may become subservient rather than superior to the county councils themselves. My second reason for moving this Amendment is that there is a very strong feeling in England upon this subject, and I should not like at some future time to have an objection raised, as it might be, to a Bill brought into this House—it has already been introduced—proposed to give this power to the English county councils that I had remained silent on the subject now. I venture to urge it upon the Chief Secretary, because, practically, the proposal to give this power to the English county councils is a proposal which is put forward by friends of his own—the two honourable Members representing Middlesex—in this House. Before 1878 there was nothing to debar Justices in quarter sessions from promoting legislation in Parliament, and under the Municipal Act the corporations of England have power to promote legislation, subject to certain restrictions laid down in the Act, and if the Amendment I move is accepted, it will give the same power to Ireland, subject to the same restrictions. The London County Council have practically the same power without limit, and the Local Government Act of 1888 duly gives power to oppose Bills. The same course is pursued in this Bill. Therefore, I have ventured to put down this Amendment, in the hope that some protest may be raised. Of course, whether I proceed to a Division on this question depends upon the support I receive from the Irish Members. If my Amendment is carried, the day may not be far distant when the powers proposed to be given to county councils in Ireland under this Bill will be conferred on county councils in England. I certainly say, without hesitation, that the denial of these powers to English county councils is objectionable. In the County Councils Association there is an almost unanimous feeling that county councils ought to be trusted with these powers.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
I hope my noble Friend will not press this Amendment. I do not in the least wish to prejudge a question on which there is much divergence of opinion. No doubt the noble Lord is right in saying that many English councils would like to have this power, and it might be desirable that they and the English councils should have it. But it is a very debateable subject, and if the powers were granted Parliament would have to consider the precise way in which it should be exercised. The Committee have a long and elaborate Bill to deal with already. I would suggest that we should content ourselves at present with assimilating the system of local government in Ireland to that of England, and defer the extension of the powers of county councils at present.

§ MR. CHANNING
supported the Amendment, as a protest against the denial of the powers of promoting legislation to English county councils, the position of which he thought was very unsatisfactory at present.