§ Mr. Lushingtonappeared at the bar, with the Report of the Resolutions relative to the arrangement of his Majesty's Household, On the question that the Report be brought up.
§ Mr. Creeveyrose and said, the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he un derstood him correctly, had calculated that the sum of 120 or 130,000l. would cover, any deficiency of the Civil List. This he intended to supply by a contribution from the Droits of the Admiralty. Against such a measure, he must enter his protest. The right hon. gentleman had no right, as a minister of the crown, to dole out those funds as he thought fit; they were strictly the property of the subjects of this country, and ought this year to be brought into the Supply. He would not enter into the subject now, because an hon. and learned friend of his (Mr. Brougham) had already given notice of a motion respecting the Droits of Admiralty. When parliament gave to his Majesty 800,000l. per ann. for the Civil List, they little imagined that a fund of 8 millions additional remained behind. They little expected to have heard it laid down as law, that 8 million of the Droits of Admiralty, was as much the property of his Majesty, as the estate of any gentleman in that House belonged to him. The House had come to the determination of granting the Prince Regent 100,000l. He did not object to that; but when they had given him the full measure which was demanded, it was not right that he should have it in his power, if any rapacious adviser should so direct him, previous to a declaration of war, (he would suppose with America,) to sweep the ships of that country from the sea, and thus put millions of money into his pocket. There was another point, of minor importance, which he also thought it necessary to notice; he meant the Leeward Island Duties. These also, he contended, were the property of the public, and should be brought in aid of the supply. His present Majesty, he was aware, had toot given them up; but they had been given up by Queen Anne, and by George the First and Second. When a new agreement was about to be made, it was right that these disputed matters should be settled; and, before the Civil List act was passed, the House ought to come to a plain Understanding on these two great questions. As those matters were constituted at present, they were not 188 productive of so much benefit to the crown, as of evil to the public. What were they to think, when they saw those funds a constant source of corrupt influence; when they beheld the law officers stand up and talk of the sacred claim, which the crown bad on them, and yet beheld ministers divide them among their relations and dependants? He alluded to the Leeward Island Duties, the property of the public, which were parcelled out among the ministers and their adherents. This he was ready to prove, and, at a future day, he would submit a motion to the House on the subject.
Mr. Brand stated,that he entirely coincided in what had fallen from the last speaker; his opinion decisively was, that the Droits of Admiralty ought to be given up for the benefit of the public. This question, however, was now in the hands of an hon. and learned friend of his, quite able to do it justice. He now wished to advert to another subject, the arrangements of the household. By the plan of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was proposed to vote 170,000l. to the support and maintenance of the king and queen. This he thought a most immoderate sum. With respect to the means of supplying this expenditure, 100,000l. was to be taken from the Civil list, and 70,000l. to be provided by a vote of parliament. This vote he professed his intention of opposing in every stage. He thought that instead of the double transfer from the Prince's income to the Civil List, and from the Civil List to his Majesty's household, it was much better that there should have been but one, were it only for the sake of avoiding complexity. He was far from wishing that the Prince Regent should not enjoy every facility for discharging all engagements on his justice or his honour, but it certainly did appear that his Royal Highness would, upon a full balance, receive 70,000l. per annum more than his Majesty had been accustomed to receive.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that I he did not clearly comprehend what it was that he was called upon to explain by the hon. gentleman. He did not even know after all the hon. gentleman had said, whether both their views of the subject were not alike. The hon. gentleman, however, seemed to labour under one particular error, which was, that 70,000l. additional was demanded from the public for the establishment of his Majesty's 189 household alone. The fact was that the additional 70,000l. was granted in view of the establishments both of his Majesty and the Prince Regent; and when the hon. gentleman had candidly declared, that he did not think such an additional grant extravagant, he was at a loss to conceive the aim or strength of his objection. If he understood it at all, it must have been that the hon. gentleman complained of the additional grant of 70,000l. when the Civil List was given over to the Prince Regent in a diminished state of 50,000l. He should endeavour, as briefly and explicitly as he could, to explain what he said last night on this point; and he hoped that the hon. member would then see the state of the case in a satisfactory manner. In the firs place, 100,000l. was to be taken from the Civil List, which, with the 70,000l. additional grant, would be appropriated for the establishment of the king. To supply part of this deficiency of 100,000l. in the Civil List, 50,000l. was to be taken from the Exchequer revenue of the Heir Apparent, and added to it; and instead of extinguishing the residue of this revenue, 53,000l. of it were to be continued to be received by the Prince Regent, and the other 17,000l. were to go as usual to the Princess. So that in fact the diminution of the Civil List was in contemplation of the more contracted expences which the smaller family of the Prince Regent would only render necessary; and the continuance of the 53,000l. to the Prince Regent of his Exchequer allowance, was in the view of its being just and necessary for his Royal Highness to satisfy those honourable obligations at which the hon. gentleman had hinted. The cause of adding the 50,000l. from the Exchequer allowance, to meet the deficiency of the Civil List, Was to satisfy the ordinary charges of Lord Steward, Lord Chamberlain, and others, usually paid out of that fund. This was all the explanation which he had to offer the hon. gentleman on that part of the subject.—Another hon. gentleman had made some observations on the appropriation of the Droits of the Admiralty, to satisfy the general deficiency of the Civil List; and had alluded, with no little degree of severity, to what he called the distribution of that species of property, by ministers among their relatives, and dependants. If a history of the grants made from this fund should be required by parliament, he had for himself to say, that he 190 would give every information in his power on the subject, in the fullest and freest manner. But he must say, that he never heard any of the grants made from that fund animadverted on before with any particular severity in that House. There certainly was one grant to an officer, (sir Home Popham), which was argued upon before, and had gone through a considerable deal of discussion; and which grant was made to that officer under the idea of the peculiar pressure of losses arising from captures and other sources. But as to any grants from ministers to the relatives or dependants of ministers, he would venture to say, that with the exception of this 12,000l. there was no such thing. There certainly was no grant which could justify the hon. member in making against ministers that charge of abusive distribution of this property, which the hon. gentleman had thought proper to throw out against them. The hon. gentleman stated, that whenever the law officers of the crown mentioned this property, they considered it as the sacred and private property of the crown; and yet that the ministers, in defiance of such declarations, dealt it out to their relatives and dependants. For his part he could state, and he did not know whether it was to him a misfortune or a merit, that for the last four years and a half that he had been in administration, neither himself, nor one of his relatives or connections, had received one single shilling of this money. It was his duty, however, to state, and it was also but justice to his predecessors to say, that if any man supposed that those funds, (he meant the Droits of the Admiralty, and the 4½ percents duties, to which the hon. gentleman had likewise alluded) had been misapplied, he did not wish to keep any such misapplication from the knowledge of parliament, by resisting any inquiry which gentlemen might choose to institute for that purpose. For his own part, however, he begged again to declare, that not one farthing from those funds had ever been received by him.
§ Mr. Creevey,in explanation, stated, that he had confined his observations to the 4½ percent. fund. He would pledge himself to prove that grants had been made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconceived that the hon. gentleman meant the, observation to be generally applied, for so he understood him in terms.
§ Mr. Brandrestated his objections, notwithstanding the explanation of the right 191 hon. gentleman, to the additional grant of 70,000l. to the Prince Regent.
Mr. Yorkeobserved, that of the 70,000l. which his Royal Highness received from the exchequer, a sum of 17,00l. was paid to her royal highness the Princess of Wales, and the difference between those two sums remained at the disposal of the Prince Regent.
§ Mr. Fremantlewas disposed to vote any sum which could contribute to the comfort of his Majesty; but he must object to the manner in which that splendour and comfort was proposed to be afforded, and to creating a new Civil List revenue. He wished to know why the whole of the Civil List establishment was not transferred to his royal highness the Prince Regent. Was it from any distrust of the Prince that it was not to be so transferred? Did the right hon. gentleman suppose that his Royal Highness would not render all the comforts to his royal rather and sovereign of which he stood in need? If it was necessary, he would give his Royal Highness 3 or 400,000l. in addition to the Civil List, if that could contribute to the happiness of his Majesty. Such a regulation as the one he now proposed would be infinitely more advantageous to the country.
§ Mr. Sheridanwished to say a few words respecting the Massage of the Prince in the year 1803 mentioned last night. It appeared that this Message had not only been misunderstood by the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but that it had also been misunderstood out of doors and in particular, that the editor of a very respectable morning paper, the Morning Chronicle, had fallen into precisely the same mistake. With the permission of the House he would read the passage he alluded to—
§ The Speakerwished to know whether the right hon. gentleman meant to, make a complaint against the person alluded to, because it was rather a novel thing to introduce newspapers, and make references to them in the manner the right hon. gentleman had done. In reminding the House of the novelty of the right hon. gentleman's proceeding, he had performed his duty, and it was for them to decide whether the right hon. gentleman should go on or desist.
§ Mr. Sheridansaid, be would not urge the matter farther. He hoped his conduct had always been sufficiently respectful to the Chair and the House. He could assure the Speaker, however, that in the course of 192 his parliamentary life, he had frequently known notice taken of minor misrepresentations out of doors, without the smallest intention of founding any specific complaint on them.
§ The Speakersaid, if such was the pleasure of the House, the right hon. gentleman would proceed.
§ On this there were a few cries of question! and the subject was dropped. The Resolutions were then agreed to, and a Bill was ordered to be brought in thereupon.