HC Deb 18 January 1812 vol 21 cc192-6

The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply

Mr. Yorke

said, that in the present circumstances of the country, it would not be expedient to reduce the number of seamen; and he should propose to the House, therefore, that the same number be voted for this year as for the last. He then moved,

  1. 1. "That 145,000 men be employed for the sea service for the year 1812, including 31,400 royal marines:
  2. 2. "That a sum not exceeding 3,845,875l. be granted for wages of the said men, for 13 months at the rate of 1l. 15s. 6d. per man per month:
  3. 3. "That 4,453,312l. 10s. be granted for victualling the same:
  4. 4. "That 3,675,750l. be granted for wear and tear of the ships:
  5. 5. "That 659,750l. be granted for ordnance for sea service on board, the said ships."—Agreed to.

Mr. Wharton

then moved the following Miscellaneous Services for the year 1812 which were, agreed to.

£. s. d.
For the relief of American Loyalists 20,000 0 0
For, the relief, of the Toulonese and Corsican Emigrants 12,000 0 0
For, the relief, of the St. Domingo sufferers 8,000 0 0
For the relief of the Dutch Emigrants 3,800 0 0
For the relief of the suffering Clergy and Laity of France 123,152 2 0
For the relief of the French Emigrant Laity resident in Jersey and Guernsey 3,411 16 0
For the relief of the poor French Refugee Laity 4,791 12 0
For the relief of the poor French Refugee Clergy 1,718 4 0
For Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland 800 0 0
For Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England 1,700 0 0
For defraying the charge of the superintendence of Aliens 8,050 12 0
For defraying the expence of the Public Office, Bow Street, for 1812 1,2000 0 0
For defraying the expence of confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts at home 70,800 0 0
For defraying the expence of Law Charges 20,000 0 0
For defraying the extraordinary expences that may be incurred for Prosecutions &c. relating to the coin of this kingdom 4,000 0 0
To defary the charge of printing for the house of Lords, and the printing Acts of Parliament for the present Session 21,000 0 0
For defraying the expence of printing Bills Reports and other Papers by order of House of commons during the present Session 16,000 0 0
For defraying the expence of printing the votes of the House of Commons during the present session 2,000 0 0
To make good the deficiency of the Grant of 1811, for defraying the expenee of printing Bills, Reports, and other Papers 4,467 6 6
Mr. Tierney

begged leave to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the House to what appeared to him to be a most shameful waste of the public money. He alluded to the extravagant manner in which plans and plates were printed, and particularly to those of the Bogs of Ireland, which were executed in a manner rather calculated to adorn a library than to instruct members in the subject they were in tended to illustrate. The expence was become so heavy, that he was sure he should be pardoned for troubling the Committee on the subject.

The Speaker

said, that the Committee had every reason to be obliged to the right hon. gentleman for calling their attention to the subject. The fact was; that great extravagance had prevailed in that department at different times. He supposed the Chairman of the Committee must have been generally imposed on. The House had already taken notice of these expensive plans, and determined as a check in future, that nothing should be published upon paper larger than a journal sheet without application to him. In furtherance of this Resolution, he had taken care not to give his sanction to any more expensive undertakings, unless when told by the Chairman of a Committee that it was indispensibly necessary. As to the case to which the right hon. gentleman particularly alluded respecting the scale of the plans of the bogs in Ireland, it was drawn in that country, and originally upon a much larger plan; on his objecting to it a smaller one was adopted, accompanied at the same time by a statement that a smaller one would not be sufficient to explain the subject to the House. Undoubtedly, if it was necessary to mark all the subdivisions, a smaller could not well be adapted, and the Committee might recollect that they were executed under the parliamentary commissioners appointed by the act for the Drainage of Bogs in Ireland.

Mr. Tierney

said, he did not impute any thing to the right hon. gentleman whose conduct he was certain was perfectly proper on the occasion; but he thought it his duty to call their attention to the fact itself. Some means ought to be devised by Parliament to prevent the recurrence of such practices.

Mr. Fitzgerald

said that he had heard the subject a good deal discussed by the commissioners, whose opinions seemed to be, that a smaller plan would not answer the purpose.

The Speaker

expressed a hope, that what had passed that night would make such an impression on the minds of gentlemen who were appointed Chairmen of Committees, as would call their attention particularly to the subject.

Mr. Whitbread

begged leave, before the Chairman left the chair, to put a question which he feared should rather have been proposed when the vote for the seamen was proposed. The subject, however, had excited so much agitation in the public mind, that he trusted he should be permitted to put it in the present instance. He did not mean to throw any blame upon any individual whatever, but he wished the right hon. gentleman would state to the House why those two great ships, the St. George and Defence, had been left in such a situation as had caused their loss, and by what means that loss was occasioned.

Mr. Yorke

, evidently much Affected, replied, that with regard to the loss incurred it was certainly but too true. The ships and the stores were of little importance, but the number of gallant lives destroyed by that unfortunate accident was important indeed. With regard to the circumstances by which we had sustained so great a loss, they were entirely owing to those accidents of wind and weather which it was impossible to for see and to provide against. The ship Hero, the loss of which we had also to lament, was cast away, owing, he believed among other causes, to a fault in the navigation, and not making allowance for the current which prevailed in those seas. It was a matter that deserved consideration, in order to correct the error in the navigation in the North Roads, and by that means to provide against such occurrences hereafter. With regard to the ships alluded to in the hon. gentleman's question, he could state that orders were issued from the Admiralty, directing that no ships should remain in the North Seas after the 1st of November. The weather however prevented the convoy, from arriving until the 17th of that month. In the storm one of the vessels fell foul of the other, which by the shock lost its rudder. After the Defence was sunk, the St. George was driven on shore, but expectations were entertained of her weathering out the storm, so much so that the admiral did not shift his flag, as he might have done. Unfortunately, however, those expectations were not realized. As to the detention of the convoy, it was owing entirely to the state of the weather; and so far was the admiralty from being to blame, that many applications were made for convoys to the Baltic, at a later period, and were refused.

Mr. Whitbread

repeated that he did not mean to impute the slightest blame to any individual. He was perfectly satisfied with the right hon. gentleman's statement, and with, the feeling which, he manifested on the occasion.

Mr. Hutchinson

inquired whether it was the intention of ministers to make any alterations in the establishment of the Royal Marines, so as to answer the reasonable expectations of that most useful corps. If not, he should, on a future day, submit a motion on the subject to the House.

Mr. Yorke

replied, that as he should have another and a better opportunity of entering into the subject, he did not now think it necessary to give any direct answer.